53 more Alstom Coradia Streams for DSB

[andersj]

In 2021 DSB ordered 100 Coradia Stream EMUs from Alstom including full maintenance for 15 years to replace the IC3 and IC4 DMUs. Because of the delayed delivery Alstom and DSB have agreed on a compensation consisting of 3 extra units delivered free of charge.

When the final formal approvals later this week DSB will order 50 more units from the framework agreement - but with a backdoor. These units could replace the 44 IR4 EMUs.
The backdoor gives DSB the ability to cancel the order for the 50 units up until 3 months after the first train from the initial order is officially handed over to DSB (currently this is expected to take place on December 31st 2026).
This is because there is still some uncertainty about the demand for these trains depending on a few factors including the possible conversion of Copenhagen-Helsingør to S-train which are currently being surveyed.

It's an interesting solution where I can't see any reason other than Alstom getting some cash flow from the initial contract signing payment, because it will still take almost 2 years until the order is fully locked.

 

[stadler]

Currently i believe there are 96x IC3 units plus 44x IR4 units which makes 140x units total. So i suppose 53x Alsthom Coradia Stream IC5 units makes sense. You are replacing 140x units and then adding x13 spare for increased capacity or extra services.

I wonder if the order could be expanded even further to include Oresundstag units. Oresundstag uses very similar X31K and X32K trains to the IC3 and IR4 trains and will surely need replacing at some point soon. I would not be surprised if they went for some additional Alsthom Coradia Stream IC5 units for that.

 

[Gloster]

DSB has no more than a minor role in Øresundstog: all decisions are taken on the Swedish side.
IC3 are three car and IR4 four.

As Denmark is extending its electrification (at last!) there is less need for diesel trains: in around five years it will not need any main-line ones. And there is, as ever, the IC4, of which there are around 60 left, although only around 40 in use on any day and doing less kilométrage than intended: they go first.

 

[andersj]

Sweden (Skånetrafiken (transit agency)) has taken over all responsibilities for the Öresundståg traffic - of course Denmark is paying for the ressources used on danish soil. Generally the individual regions and Denmark own a share of trains corresponding to the amount needed to service the part of the routes running through the regions. Denmark (DSB) still owns 24 trains which are provided free of charge to Skånetrafiken.

Skånetrafiken is preparing a tender for new trains, but while longer trains are needed on the Copenhagen-Malmö-Lund-Helsingborg corridor, some of the regions further away are resistant to pay for longer trains.

For the IC5 it's still a bit weird to order 100 + 50 trains. It's like "okay we need at least 150 trains, but the exact amount is not yet determined".

 

[andersj]

DSB press release: https://www.dsb.dk/om-dsb/presse/pressemeddelelser/dsb-bestiller-yderligere-50-ic5-togsat/

DSB orders 50 more IC5 sets

DSB has placed an additional order for 50 IC5 electric train sets from Alstom, increasing its total order to 150 trains. This expansion is part of DSB’s major fleet renewal strategy to modernize and electrify its train services. The new trains will enhance capacity and reliability on long-distance routes, and support Denmark’s green transition in public transport. Delivery of the trains is expected to begin in 2027.

 

[Gloster]

The Danish version adds that Alstom will be responsible for maintenance in new workshops in Copenhagen and Aarhus. The first trains should arrive later this year, but won’t enter service until 2027. Let us hope that this goes better than the IC4: well, it couldn’t go worse, could it? (DSB is stressing that this is a ’well proven’ type.)

 

[43096]

(DSB is stressing that this is a ’well proven’ type.)

But presumably has omitted to mention that Alstom have been serial late deliverers of this type eg Netherlands ICNG.

 

[Gloster]

But presumably has omitted to mention that Alstom have been serial late deliverers of this type eg Netherlands ICNG.

That may well be, but after the IC4 they want something that will do what it is designed to do. Delivery dates sound generous and can be worked around or, for public and political consumption, blurred, but it does need to work.

 

[Amalie]

But presumably has omitted to mention that Alstom have been serial late deliverers of this type eg Netherlands ICNG.

The Dutch ICNG’s are somewhat more custom. They’re multisystem for one thing: having support for both 1,5Kv DC and 25Kv AC electrification, and ATB and ETCS train protection. The interior is way more custom, having specifically tested different chairs with the public before going with what they have now. I’m not saying that they’re the best, but I have heard this caused things to slow down somewhat.

The units serving Amsterdam-Brussel and the 2 lone German-compatible ones being able to work with 3 different voltages/systems.

One other special feature it has is automatic switching between voltages and train protection systems for the high speed line.

But besides those special requirements, the largest delays came from COVID followed by the war in Ukraine. I’m guessing that the delays into delivering our trains caused big delays in delivering the Danish ones.

The Italians also have Coradia Streams in a commuter, single voltage variant, which seemed to have been delivered relatively timely.

 

[43096]

The Dutch ICNG’s are somewhat more custom. They’re multisystem for one thing: having support for both 1,5Kv DC and 25Kv AC electrification, and ATB and ETCS train protection. The interior is way more custom, having specifically tested different chairs with the public before going with what they have now. I’m not saying that they’re the best, but I have heard this caused things to slow down somewhat.

The units serving Amsterdam-Brussel and the 2 lone German-compatible ones being able to work with 3 different voltages/systems.

One other special feature it has is automatic switching between voltages and train protection systems for the high speed line.

But besides those special requirements, the largest delays came from COVID followed by the war in Ukraine. I’m guessing that the delays into delivering our trains caused big delays in delivering the Danish ones.

The Italians also have Coradia Streams in a commuter, single voltage variant, which seemed to have been delivered relatively timely.

Multi-system capability is standard these days - every train “platform” is designed with it. Likewise, ETCS + national train protection is also standard - and DSB will have the Danish equivalent. Internal fit is customer preference - NS are firmly rooted in the 1980s with that - and train platforms are configured to allow customers to specify their interior.

 

[andersj]

Alstom lacked/lacks engineering capacity. It took two full years until design freeze of the IC5 was reached in 2023 - that was way too long.

Alstom currently has way too many new train platform projects compared to orders on existing platforms and they also took over unfinished products from Bombardier.

 

[Amalie]

Multi-system capability is standard these days - every train “platform” is designed with it. Likewise, ETCS + national train protection is also standard - and DSB will have the Danish equivalent. Internal fit is customer preference - NS are firmly rooted in the 1980s with that - and train platforms are configured to allow customers to specify their interior.

That is true, but you can still get simple single voltage regional trains much faster. The more systems you support, the more you have to test too. I would argue still that the NS ones are somewhat more complex requiring the automated voltage/system transition system and support for both AC and DC electrification systems.

Either way, regardless of its complexity or lack of, I suspect that the NS trains still being built are somewhat of a factor in the way of the Danes getting theirs.

 

[superalbs]

Currently i believe there are 96x IC3 units plus 44x IR4 units which makes 140x units total. So i suppose 53x Alsthom Coradia Stream IC5 units makes sense. You are replacing 140x units and then adding x13 spare for increased capacity or extra services.

I wonder if the order could be expanded even further to include Oresundstag units. Oresundstag uses very similar X31K and X32K trains to the IC3 and IR4 trains and will surely need replacing at some point soon. I would not be surprised if they went for some additional Alsthom Coradia Stream IC5 units for that.

They aren't really that similar. They have much more in common with the Bombardier Regina, used in Sweden and China. Plus I think they are quite a bit newer.