• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

4REP, The Deltic of the Southern Region

Status
Not open for further replies.

Harlequinuk

On Moderation
Joined
15 May 2025
Messages
357
Location
UK
Following on from the exceptional thread about the 'Mighty74' , would love to hear everything about the Deltic *rocket ship* of Southern, the 4REP.

So I'll start; heard that in a quiet evening, with the 3rd rail buzzing at 850v, over 110 was possible? Maybe more by accident
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,442
Location
Yorks
Never got to travel on one unfortinately (growing up on the South Eastern)

Tried to chase the TC trailer added to the VEP (after a crash at Yalding) but in spite of seeing it several times, it was always going in the wrong direction !
 

Polarbear

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2008
Messages
1,938
Location
Birkenhead
Not sure about 110mph, but yes, they could certainly shift with just one 4-TC attached.

I was a student in Bournemouth in the early 1980’s & have fond memories of many speedy runs to & from Waterloo.

A favourite service was the last down fast of the day (19:35 ex Waterloo). Usually just an 8 car formation & first stop, Southampton Central. It would regularly manage that in around an hour & sit waiting for departure time.

The bacon toasties in the Buffet were also rather good. I discovered early on why hot drinks weren’t full to the brim-the Reps bounced around somewhat!
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
I suspect there are some truths, but more myths doing the rounds (about top speeds etc) as is often the case about some types of traction. During my time had the odd meeting or two down at Bournemouth depot about matters various, and would normally return to the smoke on a '91', and if the buffet was closed, would sometimes take a seat in there, as joe public never wanted to sit on those old chairs as I recall, so had the place to myself - peace and quiet so one could listen to the motors from car four just to the rear of one's seat - which on those occasions when the train was formed of only 4 + 4, could prove 'interesting' on the climb out of Bournemouth.

But as a rule the third car from the blocks at Waterloo on a Down service (after work), was the go to coach initially!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The bacon toasties in the Buffet were also rather good.
Well reminded....! Something else now long lamented in todays world...:(
 
Last edited:

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
5,697
Location
The West Country
I remember seeing REP/TC combos flying through Eastleigh in my early spotting days, they were always impressive. Had a ride on several too. IIRC didn’t the buffets have names?
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
IIRC didn’t the buffets have names?
Not externally, as per the 442's, but behind the counter, perhaps, but not sure tbh this far down the line. I know someone who will know, so will ask if no one else confirms in the meantime!

Remember seeing one hurtling through Brockenhurst (disguised as Winchester) on the UP in that film with Sophia Loren, the 'other' Brief Encounter, or am I dreaming!
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,356
Location
Glasgow
I remember seeing REP/TC combos flying through Eastleigh in my early spotting days, they were always impressive. Had a ride on several too. IIRC didn’t the buffets have names?
Yes, they all had names, all themed by places on the lime.

As @Big Jumby 74 says, only displayed internally behind the counter.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
5,697
Location
The West Country
Not externally, as per the 442's, but behind the counter, perhaps, but not sure tbh this far down the line. I know someone who will know, so will ask if no one else confirms in the meantime!
Just googled some. The New Forest, The Solent and The Brooklands were a few examples. Wish I had my old P5 book to hand!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Here’s an old thread from 2018 on 4REPs https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/memories-of-4rep-class-430.169545/post-3631747
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
Try again, lol !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think those are the 442 names?
Yes, less haste etc!. Not helped by a couple of wee drams! Hope I have redeemed myself, as fast at this computer will allow me!
 

Attachments

  • 20251205_190107.jpg
    20251205_190107.jpg
    3.3 MB · Views: 143

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,895
Just googled some. The New Forest, The Solent and The Brooklands were a few examples. Wish I had my old P5 book to hand!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Here’s an old thread from 2018 on 4REPs https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/memories-of-4rep-class-430.169545/post-3631747
As always with thinks SR traction, the Blood and Custard website is an excellent place to go: https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3TC-4TC-4REP-Bournemouth-1966.html

It has the buffet names included, about halfway down.
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
4,227
Location
Stockport
Only ever managed two REP/TC trips, Eastleigh - Bournemouth and return sometime during 1974 - I can clearly remember watching the speedometer visible through the glass in one of the central driving cabs with the needle solidly in the 90s whilst passing through the New Forest in both directions, the acceleration was really vivid!
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
Just for interest, long before I had a decent camera I caught this view of (possibly 3012?) heading west from Woking on a down stopping service in 1976, the only time I remember seeing a REP in passenger service on its own. I have posted this before, but again for interset.
 

Attachments

  • BJ-4 REP, 30xx, Woking 1976.jpg
    BJ-4 REP, 30xx, Woking 1976.jpg
    175.9 KB · Views: 172

sh24

Established Member
Joined
28 Sep 2023
Messages
1,524
Location
London
What head code is 64? 61-63 were West of England but I can't recall 64.
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
What head code is 64? 61-63 were West of England but I can't recall 64.
I can't answer that in truth. 63 was the Basingstoke stopper HC in my day, although I do recall having seen reference to 64 on this, or a-another web site in more recent times, but can not remember the details. It may have been in relation to a semi fast service, ie: limited stops after Woking perhaps, that's my best guess?
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
18,356
Location
Glasgow
What head code is 64? 61-63 were West of England but I can't recall 64.
I can't answer that in truth. 63 was the Basingstoke stopper HC in my day, although I do recall having seen reference to 64 on this, or a-another web site in more recent times, but can not remember the details. It may have been in relation to a semi fast service, ie: limited stops after Woking perhaps, that's my best guess?

The Southern Region e-mail Group has a list of SR headcodes on this page here, if that helps decipher it?


"Southern" EMU and DMU Headcodes​

Train headsignals were originally established by the Railway Clearing House and were based on the position of lamps on the front of trains, usually denoting class of train but also used to denote route, especially so by the southern companies. Over the years local variations were introduced by the individual railways which evolved into those we see in use today. The early headcodes used on EMU stock (not the LBSC overhead electrics) were one character alpha based but using only a few of those available in the English alphabet. As you can imagine the system required far more letters than were available so a complicated set of dots and bars over the characters, with some characters inverted, evolved.
The early headcodes were displayed using a metal fret which was placed on the outside of the driving cab (the driver's front window opening outwards to facilitate changing the headcode) and backlit.
In May 1929 the Southern Railway introduced a far more logical set of two character numeric headcodes (as had been used by the LBSC ac EMUs) which is, basically, that which is still used by today's TOCs on the older rolling stock. Along the way the metal frets became roller blinds (and a red blank in the roller blind subsequently replaced the traditional tail lamp), the system was applied to DEMUs from 1957 and alpha codes returned to supplement the numeric ones.
These codes were adjusted from time to time as timetables changed and routes fell into disuse but were basically much the same and are still in use today on the older DEMU and EMU units still operating.
Of necessity, some codes are used more than once, though not normally where the routes conflict.
In the following pages are be set out "snapshots" of the headcodes in use at varying times from the early LBSC ac EMUs through to the MkI derived EMU and DEMU stock used today.
Access the headcodes by clicking the relevant link below:
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow
My first “real” job was at IBM in Portsmouth in September 1984. Although I started using Portsmouth Direct services via Haslemere, I moved to Portchester and Fareham soon after. I often went Fareham-London either via Eastleigh or Southampton, the latter to use the non-stop service to London, but both with REP+TC.
Fareham-Southampton-London is not a “permitted route” today but this was before the Routeing Guide and always passed the “reasonable route” test. At the time the Weymouth services ran non-stop between London and Southampton.
I often travelled home on a Sunday evening, and my memory is of sitting at the front of a 4-REP+8-TC service, which was very quiet in the front coach. I could hear everything the driver could hear, bell and AWS.
I went on a SEG railtour which visited Dover Western Docks a little later.
The service to Winchester after Basingstoke always seemed fast, although it was pre-GPS.
The connection at Eastleigh for Fareham always worked, in both directions. I can’t remember ever being seriously delayed.
 
Last edited:

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,181
Location
Wilmslow
SEG “Southern Electric two-character headcodes” says
64 Waterloo-Basingstoke (stopping including at inner suburban stations) 1995-2002
94 Waterloo-Winchester-Southampton Central/Weymouth (stopping including at inner suburban stations) (from 2002)
The distinction between this new headcode and “stopping” headcode 63/93 is unclear but trains carrying 64/94 made some additional stops between Wimbledon and Woking.

This is a recent SEG publication to which I contributed slightly.

No appropriate use of 64 noted in 1976, though.
 
Last edited:

Roger1973

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
859
Location
Berkshire
My grandparents and one set of aunt / uncle moved to the Poole area in the early 1980s, so with parents, I made a few journeys a year involving REP (then 33/1) and TC units (we would have travelled in one of the units that was continuing west of Bournemouth, so apart from any possible ventures to the buffet car, I can't say I ever travelled on a 4 REP)

I can remember one occasion the train back to London was running quite late, and presume the driver was more interested in getting off duty before closing time than booking overtime, as the train ran at just over 100 mph (visible on the speedo in an intermediate cab and validated by the timing between mile posts method) for a fair stretch. I can't remember the exact timings now.
 

Undaunted

Member
Joined
3 Aug 2022
Messages
82
Location
Wessex
Just for interest, long before I had a decent camera I caught this view of (possibly 3012?) heading west from Woking on a down stopping service in 1976, the only time I remember seeing a REP in passenger service on its own. I have posted this before, but again for interset.

My memory is being severely stretched now, but I thought that in the 1970s the last up-stopper (93) from Bournemouth (dep 22.12, and only running as far as Basingstoke) was diagrammed for a 4 REP alone, presumably for stock balancing purposes as a small number of REP/TCs stabled at Basingstoke overnight. Maybe @Big Jumby 74 has a set of rolling stock diagrams for the relevant period which might confirm that it was the case, or alternatively confirm that my memory is as bad as I fear it is.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
9,151
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
I remember seeing REP/TC combos flying through Eastleigh in my early spotting days, they were always impressive. Had a ride on several too. IIRC didn’t the buffets have names?
Prior to the mid-1980s rationalisation and resignalling, they had to slow down to 60 through Eastleigh....due to the complex series of points and crossings and the sharp curve at the South end.
Remember seeing one hurtling through Brockenhurst (disguised as Winchester) on the UP in that film with Sophia Loren, the 'other' Brief Encounter, or am I dreaming!
No, you're not dreaming....I saw her/it too (with Richard Burton playing the male lead).
I can't answer that in truth. 63 was the Basingstoke stopper HC in my day, although I do recall having seen reference to 64 on this, or a-another web site in more recent times, but can not remember the details. It may have been in relation to a semi fast service, ie: limited stops after Woking perhaps, that's my best guess?
As you say, 63 was the HC for the Basingstoke stoppers, which detached a unit from the the rear at Woking for Alton....and REPs were not permitted to work in multiple with other powered units. However, IIRC, on Sundays the Basingstoke and Alton trains ran separately to /from Waterloo on a half-hourly basis....giving an hourly service on each 'branch'. Therefore I'm wondering whether the service in your photo had either started from Working, or run via Chertsey due to engineering works.
Only ever managed two REP/TC trips, Eastleigh - Bournemouth and return sometime during 1974 - I can clearly remember watching the speedometer visible through the glass in one of the central driving cabs with the needle solidly in the 90s whilst passing through the New Forest in both directions, the acceleration was really vivid!
I used to do a lot of intermediate cab loitering on both the Bournemouth and Portsmouth Direct lines in the mid-late 1970s....and I'm afraid the Southern Region EMU speedometers were not the most reliable. The speedos in adjacent cabs could often differ by up to 10 mph.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,318
Following on from the exceptional thread about the 'Mighty74' , would love to hear everything about the Deltic *rocket ship* of Southern, the 4REP.

So I'll start; heard that in a quiet evening, with the 3rd rail buzzing at 850v, over 110 was possible? Maybe more by accident
We’ve had a number of threads explaining that 850V was a myth, based on misunderstanding.
 

Harlequinuk

On Moderation
Joined
15 May 2025
Messages
357
Location
UK
We’ve had a number of threads explaining that 850V was a myth, based on misunderstanding.


The most recent thread has evidence which says otherwise.

Back to memories of the 4REP!

Sadly for me when I joined NSE the REP had just left traffic, so my time was on the buffet of a BIG
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,293
Location
West Wiltshire
Just for interest, long before I had a decent camera I caught this view of (possibly 3012?) heading west from Woking on a down stopping service in 1976, the only time I remember seeing a REP in passenger service on its own. I have posted this before, but again for interset.
I grew up in New Milton, so used REP+TC a lot in 1970s and 1980s, but from memory only twice did I ever travel on a train with just a REP unit. And yes at the time they really shifted (although nowadays having around 800hp per vehicle on express units is not uncommon).

During snowy periods it was common practice to form REP in middle (and being winter didn't really need 8cars to Poole and Weymouth) the population of Dorset was lot less 40 years ago.

I do remember the tables being laid up, white tablecloths and proper metal cutlery etc usually first few rows in the adjacent coach, not the Restaurant buffet which had loose wooden chairs.

My most interesting trips would have been some early starts for university interviews in 1982 or 1983. First train through New Forest in severe frost with arcing lighting up the dark forest and loud cracking under first car almost continuously for few miles. Give me that over sound of a diesel loco anyday.
 

contrex

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2009
Messages
1,684
Location
St Werburghs, Bristol
Following on from the exceptional thread about the 'Mighty74' , would love to hear everything about the Deltic *rocket ship* of Southern, the 4REP.

So I'll start; heard that in a quiet evening, with the 3rd rail buzzing at 850v, over 110 was possible? Maybe more by accident
That 850v is a myth! Misprint or magazine journalist error/misunderstanding. The Bournemouth electrification scheme was nominally 750v, same as the 1959-62 Kent Coast scheme. 660v elsewhere for decades. You might have got a voltage rise over 800v at substation DC busbars on no load, maybe. Timings were calculated based on 675v at the shoes. Having said that, I did read a trip report in the Railway Magazine around 1970 that mentioned 103 mph near Roundwood in the UP direction. By "accident" as you say. :D
 

Harlequinuk

On Moderation
Joined
15 May 2025
Messages
357
Location
UK
After reading all the 3rd rail threads, i would lean towards a misunderstanding of the `no load` rectifiers ; but then again, DC isnt perfect, and the voltage wanders anyway , so its really more like 750 +/- 150
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top