4E25 - Bow - Heck

[malc-c]

I was watching a interesting video produced by Tony G which showed a 66 with a rake of empty wagons reversing into a siding at Biggleswade where it collected more empty waggons, before travelling North with the lot.

Can anyone provide me with some information on the normal movements as it seems strange that it takes all the empties away rather then leave them all in the siding in readiness to be loaded with construction blocks. It would also be interesting to know why the siding already contains a small rake of wagons... Is it a case that the train brings in the full rake of empties, reverses back up into the yard where it's loaded with blocks, then the rake is split with the loco taking the first half to one destination, then returns with the empties and dumps them in the siding, runs round and collects the second lot of loaded waggons, takes them to second destination, the returns with the empties which get coupled up to the first lot of empties in the siding and then takes them all back to Heck ?

Would be interested in any details of its workings

Cheers

 

[Freightmaster]

Can anyone provide me with some information on the normal movements as it seems strange that it takes all the empties away
rather than leave them all in the siding in readiness to be loaded with construction blocks.

For clarification, this traffic, which has been running for many years now,
conveys construction blocks *from* Heck to Bow and Biggleswade.

It would also be interesting to know why the siding already contains a small rake of wagons...

Because they were dropped off (loaded) that morning from Heck and were uploaded while
the rest of the train ran to East London and back to deliver blocks to the terminal at Bow.


hope this helps!



MARK

 

[malc-c]

Oh, I see, so rather than the blocks being manufactured in Bigglswade, they are made elsewhere, loaded at Heck, with half being delivered to Bigglswade where they are unloaded whilst the remaining half goes on to East London. It then returns empty to Biggleswade where it collects the now unloaded first half and then take the full rake back to Heck.... My misunderstanding was that the blocks were made at Biggleswade.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Swimbar]

Oh, I see, so rather than the blocks being manufactured in Bigglswade, they are made elsewhere, loaded at Heck, with half being delivered to Bigglswade where they are unloaded whilst the remaining half goes on to East London. It then returns empty to Biggleswade where it collects the now unloaded first half and then take the full rake back to Heck.... My misunderstanding was that the blocks were made at Biggleswade.

Thanks for the clarification

The blocks are made by Plasmor:- https://www.plasmor.co.uk/our-locations

 

[jopsuk]

OK, looking at the track on google aerial view- what movements does the "up" service do to drop off the wagons? And does the yard there have it's own shunter?
Incidentally Streetview has a clear view of the yard, and of a train picking up the empties

 

[malc-c]

OK, looking at the track on google aerial view- what movements does the "up" service do to drop off the wagons? And does the yard there have it's own shunter?
Incidentally Streetview has a clear view of the yard, and of a train picking up the empties

That's an interesting viewpoint... wonder if it's possible to still get to that location to video.

From the companies website

National distribution is achieved from state of the art manufacturing plants strategically situated in Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Cheshire and County Durham. Customers in the South East and London are serviced by two distribution depots which receive daily stock deliveries by a unique rail freight system utilising the Company’s own specially converted railway wagons which form daily dedicated block delivery trains.

So that clarifies the splitting of the train

 

[swt_passenger]

OK, looking at the track on google aerial view- what movements does the "up" service do to drop off the wagons? And does the yard there have it's own shunter?
Incidentally Streetview has a clear view of the yard, and of a train picking up the empties

RTT suggests it runs through Biggleswade P1 on the up slow and then reverses past shunt signal K235 across to the down slow. That would put the train in P4 with the loco at the south end. From there it can run south into the siding and past the Plasmor depot into a headshunt, and reverse into the depot. Then run forward and reverse back north to leave from P4 across the ladder to the up slow.

 

[berwicksfinest]

As the Driver on 4E25/6L69 Last week, The train travels from Plasmor's Heck and recesses in Peterborough West Yard. We sign on at 04.18 to prep tran for a 05.10 departure (at this point it has 24 or very occasionally 25 wagons loaded.

Arrival at Biggleswade on the Up slow we propel across the ladder and stop by 'A' frame. The groundstaff let us in the yard and we propel into an empty road and drop off Biggleswades 12/13 loaded. we shunt across and pick up the empties and place them out by the catch points shown in video. Split the loaded and await our path to Bow.

Coming home on the Down Slow we stop at 'B' frame drop G/staff off to work frame draw forward, G/staff works frame and we propel to reconnect two halves. Again await the signalmans pleasure to take back north.

Why do we not take both portions to Bow ?? Quite simply not enough room, it would back shunting a ball ache in the time we have

 

[malc-c]

As the Driver on 4E25/6L69 Last week, The train travels from Plasmor's Heck and recesses in Peterborough West Yard. We sign on at 04.18 to prep tran for a 05.10 departure (at this point it has 24 or very occasionally 25 wagons loaded.

Arrival at Biggleswade on the Up slow we propel across the ladder and stop by 'A' frame. The groundstaff let us in the yard and we propel into an empty road and drop off Biggleswades 12/13 loaded. we shunt across and pick up the empties and place them out by the catch points shown in video. Split the loaded and await our path to Bow.

Coming home on the Down Slow we stop at 'B' frame drop G/staff off to work frame draw forward, G/staff works frame and we propel to reconnect two halves. Again await the signalmans pleasure to take back north.

Why do we not take both portions to Bow ?? Quite simply not enough room, it would back shunting a ball ache in the time we have

Fantastic information, thank you.

If I follow your post correctly (and I'm not in the industry so some terminology may escape me, sorry) there is always a set of 12 or so empty wagons from the previous day left in the yard, so having dropped off 12 or 13 loaded wagons in the empty siding, do you shunt the over night empties into the area by the catch points on their own, or do you attach them to the rear of the remaining loaded wagons destined for Bow and drag them out and then split the train again? I presume that you then pull the loco with the 12 or so loaded waggons forward to the top of the head shunt and then reverse via the cross over points to the down slow....



I guess in an ideal world it would make life easier if there was a series of points north of Biggleswade to make crossing from the up slow to the down slow, and then reversing into the yard a lot simpler, rather than the reverse, forward, reverse operation that you describe. Looking at google maps it seems the long headshunt doesn't have a connection to the down slow either, which would make the task of taking the split train to Bow a lot easier too, provided it was before the ladder !

 

[berwicksfinest]

Yes there are usually 12/13 wagons on site at Plasmor Biggleswade

After placing the loads in (with 12 Bow loads on Loco) we transfer across to the string of empties and connect them to the loads and draw them out of the Plasmor site and stand them on the "run round"/"arrival" against the Catch points ready to pick up on the return leg.

Actually the current method of propelling across and drawing across the ladder for departure works very well (when everything is going right!!)





And just to confuse there is usually 1 day a week we stop at Biggleswad and Saturdays we stop there too

 

[jopsuk]

As the Driver on 4E25/6L69 Last week, The train travels from Plasmor's Heck and recesses in Peterborough West Yard. We sign on at 04.18 to prep tran for a 05.10 departure (at this point it has 24 or very occasionally 25 wagons loaded.

Arrival at Biggleswade on the Up slow we propel across the ladder and stop by 'A' frame. The groundstaff let us in the yard and we propel into an empty road and drop off Biggleswades 12/13 loaded. we shunt across and pick up the empties and place them out by the catch points shown in video. Split the loaded and await our path to Bow.

Coming home on the Down Slow we stop at 'B' frame drop G/staff off to work frame draw forward, G/staff works frame and we propel to reconnect two halves. Again await the signalmans pleasure to take back north.

Why do we not take both portions to Bow ?? Quite simply not enough room, it would back shunting a ball ache in the time we have

exactly the knowledge I was after, from clearly the most qualified to provide it! thankyou

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

For those of a similar mindset this would make an excellent Train Sim scenario.

 

[malc-c]

As the Driver on 4E25/6L69 Last week, The train travels from Plasmor's Heck and recesses in Peterborough West Yard. We sign on at 04.18 to prep tran for a 05.10 departure (at this point it has 24 or very occasionally 25 wagons loaded.

Arrival at Biggleswade on the Up slow we propel across the ladder and stop by 'A' frame. The groundstaff let us in the yard and we propel into an empty road and drop off Biggleswades 12/13 loaded. we shunt across and pick up the empties and place them out by the catch points shown in video. Split the loaded and await our path to Bow.

Coming home on the Down Slow we stop at 'B' frame drop G/staff off to work frame draw forward, G/staff works frame and we propel to reconnect two halves. Again await the signalmans pleasure to take back north.

Why do we not take both portions to Bow ?? Quite simply not enough room, it would back shunting a ball ache in the time we have

For those of a similar mindset this would make an excellent Train Sim scenario.

It certainly would, but in order to do it justice I need to clarify something....and in laymans terms as I don't work in the industry so some terminology escapes me



Using the above diagram, is the following program of events correct.

1. The train slows and stops at point 1, then reverses across the two fast lines to location F
2. Points X are manually set and the train draws forward into the headshunt D
3. Points X are reset to clear the down slow line
4. Yard points set to one of the free sidings (say B in this example)
5. Train reverses into the free siding, and the train is split, leaving around a dozen loaded wagons
6. Train draws forward into the headshunt, and yard points set to collect the 12 or 13 empties (say in siding C in the example)
7. Train reverses into the siding and connects to the empties.
8. Train draws forward into the Head shunt D
9. Yard points are set, and the train reverses to location E
10. Empties are deposited in location E
11. Train draws forward into the Headshunt D once again
12. Once cleared by the signalman, points X are set and the train reverses to location F
13. Points X are reset
14. Train pulls forward crossing the fast lines, onto the up slow at point 1 and then on to Bow
15. On return from Bow the train stops at G and drops off personnelle to operate the catch point to allow the train to reverse and collect the empties in location E
16. The train then reverses clear of the down slow and points are cleared
17. Once clearance has been granted, the train then pulls forward out onto the down slow on its way north with 20+ empty wagons

Hopefully berwicksfinest can clarify the above...The above is causing me to pull my hair out in TS2020 as it derails at 11 and the point in the sim is not a manual switch controlled by a local frame.

 

[berwicksfinest]

You're are spot on.

The only thing I would say points X on your diagram are Groundframe operated as well as Point G
A frame being London end and B frame being country end, Both need to be given release from the now York ROC

Groundframe B has no associated signals but operates Catch points as well as Up slow to yard points

Groundframe A has K235 sub signal control for when frame is release for groundstaff to signal 6L69 into headshunt, but when frame given back to YROC they have the ability to clear K235 for heading to Bow.

Also to note sidings A is a cripple road and literally holds max 2 PNAs

 

[malc-c]

Thanks for the confirmation...It shows the limitation of the simulator as both the catch points (signalled with a ground signal) near G and the cross-over at location X are both controlled by the game rather than having the ability to manually change them, probably because as you say they are normally controlled from YROC, but the developers have omitted to build that option into the sim. Hence why I cannot get passed step 11.

Thanks for the update, and clarification of the movements...

 

[High Dyke]

I believe that the Biggleswade terminal has a converted tractor, with drawhook fitted, in order to shunt wagons on-site.

 

[berwicksfinest]

I believe that the Biggleswade terminal has a converted tractor, with drawhook fitted, in order to shunt wagons on-site.

No DB Cargo do all shunting on site

We place wagons according to plasmors wishes. They are not allowed to move them

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Thanks for the confirmation...It shows the limitation of the simulator as both the catch points (signalled with a ground signal) near G and the cross-over at location X are both controlled by the game rather than having the ability to manually change them, probably because as you say they are normally controlled from YROC, but the developers have omitted to build that option into the sim. Hence why I cannot get passed step 11.

Thanks for the update, and clarification of the movements...

Im not an expert in TS2021 by any means but have you tried creating a dummy ‘siding’ location on the down slow at location F? Which can act as a waymarker location to force the sim to change points X to allow you to continue beyond step 11. Also check the directionality of the track through the points, using space bar to change your view within world editor.

 

[High Dyke]

No DB Cargo do all shunting on site

We place wagons according to plasmors wishes. They are not allowed to move them

Cheers for the update.

 

[berwicksfinest]

Cheers for the update.

Heck sidings, Do have their own pilot 0-6-0, they do their own shunting for loading.

Bow Midland are the same as Biggleswade, DB do the placing

 

[jopsuk]

all this on a fairly busy mainline. Carefully pathed to be either side of the morning peak on the Up. Timetable planning art

 

[malc-c]

For those of a similar mindset this would make an excellent Train Sim scenario.

Well I've lost my scenario creation virginity - My first attempt has been uploaded to my steam workshop area. If you go to the steam workshop for TS202 and search for Bigglsewade Freight- 4E25/6L69 you should find it.

It may not be perfect, my not be a true representation of the real life services which is down to the limitations of the simulator, but it's fun to run

Feel free to give it a go. It does require the DTG Freightliner 66 v2 which can be had from their online store for an offer price of £2.39 !

 

[hurri67]

With that all explained to you,I would at least like to see the option of a DB loco, rather the F/liner..

 

[malc-c]

If I had one I would have used one....

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Well I've lost my scenario creation virginity - My first attempt has been uploaded to my steam workshop area. If you go to the steam workshop for TS202 and search for Bigglsewade Freight- 4E25/6L69 you should find it.

It may not be perfect, my not be a true representation of the real life services which is down to the limitations of the simulator, but it's fun to run

Feel free to give it a go. It does require the DTG Freightliner 66 v2 which can be had from their online store for an offer price of £2.39 !

Many thanks - I will certainly have a look at it once I’ve managed to get TS2021 to play ball again. Sadly this years free upgrade has rather broken my installation, rather upsetting given the considerable amount of DLC I’ve acquired over the last few years!

With that all explained to you,I would at least like to see the option of a DB loco, rather the F/liner..

TSTools is your friend...

 

[malc-c]

Many thanks - I will certainly have a look at it once I’ve managed to get TS2021 to play ball again. Sadly this years free upgrade has rather broken my installation, rather upsetting given the considerable amount of DLC I’ve acquired over the last few years!

Oh no... hope you have a back up??

The scenario isn't accurate.. I put it together using the components I have, and as I had only clocked up less than 50 hours since getting the sim when it was TS2013 or something you can see that it seldom gets played. I've clocked up twice that in the past two weeks testing this scenario !

The main point is that whilst the stock is not true or even in period, I have tried to make the scenario fun and challenging to play.

TSTools is your friend...

I've just discovered this... way over my head - but I've been told that you can use it to substitute a loco in a scenario for one that you own, thus save having to purchase one... wouldn't have the foggiest how to do it though....

 

[gbbub321]

No DB Cargo do all shunting on site

We place wagons according to plasmors wishes. They are not allowed to move them

As I’m aware now, Db staff are planned to discharge train wagons ,

 

[berwicksfinest]

As I’m aware now, Db staff are planned to discharge train wagons ,

No that would never happen as Plasmor staff use mechanical grabs (used to load lorries as well) Our groundstaff would have to stay on site, they are needed to go with the train

 

[gbbub321]

No that would never happen as Plasmor staff use mechanical grabs (used to load lorries as well) Our groundstaff would have to stay on site, they are needed to go with the train

When you say go with the train, is it not the europort groundstaff that nip over to get it in , or knottingley staff

 

[berwicksfinest]

Apologies I thought you meant the the Biggleswade/Bow side of the work.

Yes the Europort link covers Heck, However their work is usually "tagged" on with something else. I've never had Knottingley G/Staff. Regarding loading, again I cannot see that DB G/staff would load the wagons.
Now whether there's plans afoot to operate Plasmors Pilot, I don't know but again I cannot see it and the grapevine is not buzzing