47 MkIV haul

[GrimShady]

Hello

First post long time lurker. Just be watching the Inside Story episode following the 225 crews in the early 90s https://youtu.be/H1XIrHcV6dA

During the withdrawal of the 91s for that week they used 47s, where did the power for the galley coach and rest of the train came from without the 91? Could the ETH on a 47 supply a full set of Mk IVs?

 

[1179_Clee2]

Hello

First post long time lurker. Just be watching the Inside Story episode following the 225 crews in the early 90s https://youtu.be/H1XIrHcV6dA

During the withdrawal of the 91s for that week they used 47s, where did the power for the galley coach and rest of the train came from without the 91? Could the ETH on a 47 supply a full set of Mk IVs?

Class 47 ETS rating 66
MK4 coaches rated at ETS 6
10 coach rake including DVT rated 60
A Class 47 has a higher rating so can heat a MK4 rake of coaches

 

[GrimShady]

Thanks for the info. And that includes the Galley coach too?

 

[robbeech]

It will do, and you could argue that this could be kept out of use during disruption. I assume that particular DVT works as it should with a 47 as it does with everything else i've seen them with (67, 68, 90, 91 etc)

 

[D6975]

It will do, and you could argue that this could be kept out of use during disruption. I assume that particular DVT works as it should with a 47 as it does with everything else i've seen them with (67, 68, 90, 91 etc)

No, the sets were dragged always. Ordinary non push-pull fitted 47s were used.

 

[CosherB]

It will do, and you could argue that this could be kept out of use during disruption. I assume that particular DVT works as it should with a 47 as it does with everything else i've seen them with (67, 68, 90, 91 etc)

For use with a DVT:

47/7 - worked with DBSOs via TDM
67 - AAR
68 - AAR with Chiltern, with TPE tbc. Have you seen a 68 on a VTEC Mk4 rake?
89, 90, 91 - TDM

 

[yorkie]

I believe the Guard Kevin is still working on the railway as a Guard (can anyone confirm?)

Last time I saw him (on XC), he had every connection memorised, including the times and in some cases the booked platform number, and was informing passengers with onward connections of this information. Absolutely brilliant

 

[dubscottie]

For use with a DVT:

47/7 - worked with DBSOs via TDM

The 47/7 had an older form of TDM that is/was only compatible with the DBSOs in original Scotrail form.

 

[43096]

Thanks for the info. And that includes the Galley coach too?

The "galley" coach/buffet/whatever will be substantially more than ETH index 6. A mark 3 RFM is index 14.

 

[Siemens Staines]

It wasn't only during periods of disruption that 47s worked on MK4s. They had booked daily diagrams where they dragged the sets from Leeds to/from Harrogate and Bradford Forster Square although I do not recall whether the buffet cars were in use on these sections of their journeys to Kings Cross.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I believe the Guard Kevin is still working on the railway as a Guard (can anyone confirm?)

Last time I saw him (on XC), he had every connection memorised, including the times and in some cases the booked platform number, and was informing passengers with onward connections of this information. Absolutely brilliant

The esteemed Kevin is very much still a guard/TM with XC, still based at Leeds. His encyclopaedic list of connections from New Street is legend, especially since he usually starts it at Water Orton! Also his Knottingley depot branded traps and "Duuuuurby"

 

[1179_Clee2]

The "galley" coach/buffet/whatever will be substantially more than ETH index 6. A mark 3 RFM is index 14.

A MK4 RFM or a RSB have a index of only ETS 6

 

[Taunton]

I know it seems sort of unbelievable nowadays, but BR as a policy tried to arrange everything to connect to everything else as much as possible. So the couplings were the same, the heating connections were the same, the brakes were compatible, and so on. Seems extraordinary nowadays, especially to those operators who have two incompatible types of stock, schedule them so they alternate in the timetable, and then have a breakdown recovery plan dependent on stock of the compatible type assisting from behind.

 

[43096]

A MK4 RFM or a RSB have a index of only ETS 6

I am struggling to believe that a Mark 4 RFM/RSB with all the catering equipment has the same ETH rating as a normal first or standard class coach. I also struggle to believe that they are less than half the power rating of a Mark 3 RFM. Photographic evidence of a data panel required!

 

[coppercapped]

I know it seems sort of unbelievable nowadays, but BR as a policy tried to arrange everything to connect to everything else as much as possible. So the couplings were the same, the heating connections were the same, the brakes were compatible, and so on. Seems extraordinary nowadays, especially to those operators who have two incompatible types of stock, schedule them so they alternate in the timetable, and then have a breakdown recovery plan dependent on stock of the compatible type assisting from behind.

No it didn't. This urban myth never dies.

Electric multiple units from Class 313 used Tightlocks - basically a Buckeye with gathering horns

The Class 442 used drophead buckeyes

The Sprinters from Class 150 onwards used BSI couplers.

Loco-hauled coaching stock tended to use Buckeyes and early BR suburban stock used screw couplings.

If anyone wants the real nitty-gritty then RSSB document SD001 Historical System Data for Mechanical and Electrical Coupling of Rail Vehicles is your friend.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It wasn't only during periods of disruption that 47s worked on MK4s. They had booked daily diagrams where they dragged the sets from Leeds to/from Harrogate and Bradford Forster Square although I do not recall whether the buffet cars were in use on these sections of their journeys to Kings Cross.

Has anyone ever seen photo evidence of a Mk 4 set at Harrogate? I've read that it happened, but never seen a picture.

Interestingly the Bradford FSq services started during the period when the first batch of Class 91s were working in tandem with the adapted HST sets and normal practice was for the single power car to lead from Leeds to Bradford dragging the set effectively OEO. A diesel loco would follow a few minutes behind to drag it back to Leeds!

 

[Helvellyn]

A MK4 RFM or a RSB have a index of only ETS 6

Incorrect. As built the RFM had an ETH index of 14X, same as a Mark 3A RFM. So a ten coach train (DVT-FO-FO-RFM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSOE) had a total ETH index of 68X, two more than a Class 47/4.

I do wonder whether it was possible to isolate the heating in the DVT or the kitchen equipment in the RFM to reduce the ETH index of the format. However, if my recollection is correct (and I'm sure someone will have the answer) the ETH index of the whole train was not meant to exceed that of the locomotive.

 

[theblackwatch]

Has anyone ever seen photo evidence of a Mk 4 set at Harrogate? I've read that it happened, but never seen a picture.

Yes, I've even photographed a 91 at Harrogate on one occasion! Will have to find and scan...

 

[1179_Clee2]

Incorrect. As built the RFM had an ETH index of 14X, same as a Mark 3A RFM. So a ten coach train (DVT-FO-FO-RFM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSOE) had a total ETH index of 68X, two more than a Class 47/4.

Please tell Platform 5 as their pocket books have listed this as ETS 6 since Mk4's were introduced.
I have LHCS pocket books going back to 1983!

 

[43096]

Incorrect. As built the RFM had an ETH index of 14X, same as a Mark 3A RFM. So a ten coach train (DVT-FO-FO-RFM-TSOD-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSOE) had a total ETH index of 68X, two more than a Class 47/4.

I do wonder whether it was possible to isolate the heating in the DVT or the kitchen equipment in the RFM to reduce the ETH index of the format. However, if my recollection is correct (and I'm sure someone will have the answer) the ETH index of the whole train was not meant to exceed that of the locomotive.

Thank you for that.

As to the electrical load, the ETH index is the maximum requirement, which is probably only required when the train is stone cold in the middle of winter, and catering equipment is probably not in use when the set is being warmed up.

It's a similar situation to the Caledonian Sleepers, where the stock ETH index is somewhere north of 90, yet 86101 (index 74) is absolutely fine hauling and heating.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Has anyone ever seen photo evidence of a Mk 4 set at Harrogate? I've read that it happened, but never seen a picture.

Interestingly the Bradford FSq services started during the period when the first batch of Class 91s were working in tandem with the adapted HST sets and normal practice was for the single power car to lead from Leeds to Bradford dragging the set effectively OEO. A diesel loco would follow a few minutes behind to drag it back to Leeds!

I don't have photographic evidence but on Sat 4th August 1990 I travelled on 1710 Kings Cross - Harrogate (to Peterborough) with 91013 on MK4s.

The only time I travelled to Bradford Forster Square in this era, on 19th November 1990 with the 1550 from Kings Cross, the 91 came off of the MK4s at Leeds, and 47418 hauled the set to/from Bradford. On the return 1945 Bradford - Kings Cross, the 47 came off at Leeds and the 91 went on the other end, blunt end leading to Kings Cross.

Looking back at the old diagrams from 1990, the 47s only worked Harrogate trains on Saturdays. I also see that they had a turn on Sundays from Hull to Doncaster which I guess was on MK4s but I have no personal recollection of this service. My only recollection of a 91 working forward from Doncaster around this time was with an Edinburgh - Kings Cross relief where 47156 from Edinburgh came off at Doncaster and a 91 worked forward (blunt end first) but the stock on that occasion was Raspberry Ripple MK1s

 

[Suraggu]

When any Mk.4 services are hauled by Class 67 (T/Bird) equipment in the service vehicle (SV) has to be isolated for train supply reasons.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Has anyone ever seen photo evidence of a Mk 4 set at Harrogate? I've read that it happened, but never seen a picture.

I've never seen photographic evidence; however it is described in the late Peter Kirton (who also appeared in the "Inside Story" documentary mentioned earlier) 's autobiography.

I'd recommend anyone to seek out the book on Amazon or some such wherefore for the full description (a fascinating read on many counts); but the 225 stock was profoundly unsuited to the Harrogate run; as it was at first a fully loaded Mk4 set; plus a 91 (which are extremely heavy); all being dragged up towards Horsforth by (from what I can gather) the most knackered old spoon within a 30 mile radius of Leeds. Removing the 91 didn't help much; as (sod's law being paramount on the railway) this was in autumn; so the trains were slipping everywhere; and sometimes taking 2 hours to get from Leeds to Harrogate. I'll leave the tales of manual sanding and so on to Mr. Kirton's autobiography; but suffice to say I believe dragged Mk4s are still barred from the route to this day.

 

[ainsworth74]

Taken this evening at Kings Cross showing a Mk4 SV having an ETH index of 6. I hope people appreciate the funny looks I got for taking that photo

 

[najaB]

I hope people appreciate the funny looks I got for taking that photo

Your dedication to the cause is appreciated.

 

[Cowley]

Your dedication to the cause is appreciated.

Definitely. Lucky you weren't arrested

 

[daikilo]

Taken this evening at Kings Cross showing a Mk4 SV having an ETH index of 6. I hope people appreciate the funny looks I got for taking that photo

The H of ETH used to be Heating, which is possibly why the 6. How is the non-heating service power supplied for the Mk4 SV?

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I am aware the terms ETS and ETH are interchangeable?

 

[43096]

As far as I am aware the terms ETS and ETH are interchangeable?

In ye olde days I always thought ETH was for standard BR 900V electric supply and ETS was HST-type 415V three phase AC supply.

 

[swissrailpassion]

I've never seen photographic evidence; however it is described in the late Peter Kirton (who also appeared in the "Inside Story" documentary mentioned earlier) 's autobiography.

I'd recommend anyone to seek out the book on Amazon or some such wherefore for the full description (a fascinating read on many counts); but the 225 stock was profoundly unsuited to the Harrogate run; as it was at first a fully loaded Mk4 set; plus a 91 (which are extremely heavy); all being dragged up towards Horsforth by (from what I can gather) the most knackered old spoon within a 30 mile radius of Leeds. Removing the 91 didn't help much; as (sod's law being paramount on the railway) this was in autumn; so the trains were slipping everywhere; and sometimes taking 2 hours to get from Leeds to Harrogate. I'll leave the tales of manual sanding and so on to Mr. Kirton's autobiography; but suffice to say I believe dragged Mk4s are still barred from the route to this day.

In the early nineties the sets were dragged to Harrogate then ECS forwards to York Mon to Fri.