456s to SWT

[Dunderhead]

I wouldn't insist on a DMU, but I don't like the idea of "dropping" to a 456. I like your 460 idea though, even if it isn't possible.

I imagine the 456s will be lovely once they've had an SWT refurb so I wouldn't worry too much!

 

[jopsuk]

So you'd merrily waste a much needed DMU on it all day then for the sake of image?

I had actually thought in the past why they don't just use two of the redundant end coaches from the 460 breakup joined together and use that on the Lymington branch all day.

As well as the passenger doors (and windows?) being scavenged for the other units, as far as I understand the redundant cars will have had their traction equipment removed as well? So you'd have a two car unit with roller doors, no windows/unglazed windows and potentially no way of moving. Other than that, no problem!

 

[Safety365]

[...]All the details of which stations and which platforms will be extended for ten cars is in the CP4 enhancement plans, as recently updated.

Which can be found, where? Link?

 

[tbtc]

As well as the passenger doors (and windows?) being scavenged for the other units, as far as I understand the redundant cars will have had their traction equipment removed as well? So you'd have a two car unit with roller doors, no windows/unglazed windows and potentially no way of moving. Other than that, no problem!

::awaits the first "it'd still be better than a Pacer" comment::

 

[Failed Unit]

::awaits the first "it'd still be better than a Pacer" comment::

But it is

 

[cle]

Will they be added to the ends? Or sandwiched in between two 4-car sets so they never need to be driven?

 

[swt_passenger]

Which can be found, where? Link?

Sorry, here it is:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064781108

Package 7 on pages 108 - 111. The last section gives the start dates for each station involved, some are this month.

 

[jopsuk]

Will they be added to the ends? Or sandwiched in between two 4-car sets so they never need to be driven?

No-one yet seems to know (or at least, no-one has given an official line). SWT inner suburban services run with Guards who would usally use the 455's connector (it is shut to passengers unlike 317s)

 

[Failed Unit]

No-one yet seems to know (or at least, no-one has given an official line). SWT inner suburban services run with Guards who would usally use the 455's connector (it is shut to passengers unlike 317s)

Didn't know that, was going to say will the lack of corridor connections be a problem? I know the can switch sets like they do in Scotrail, but the lack of corridor connection is often highlighted as a safety issue by both staff and passengers on the 170s as they were used to them in the 158 days.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this really enough to run everything via Sydenham and Balham as 10 car from December 2013?

It depends how the original proposal is interpreted. This was debated elsewhere regarding SWT a couple of years back, when people were racking their brains trying to work out how to extend all the 455 operated services to ten car - clearly this would require about 91 carriage equivalents, to go with the existing 91 four car units.

But then an SWT driver chipped in with the point that it didn't need to be throughout the peak, just the high peak, and careful diagramming would ensure that most arrivals between 8 and 9 could be 10 car.

Now in the SN case, which of the following do they really mean?
a. every train on all those routes will be ten car,
b. some of the trains on all routes,
c. all of the trains on some of the routes
d. some of the trains on some of the routes...

 

[Class377/5]

It depends how the original proposal is interpreted. This was debated elsewhere regarding SWT a couple of years back, when people were racking their brains trying to work out how to extend all the 455 operated services to ten car - clearly this would require about 91 carriage equivalents, to go with the existing 91 four car units.

But then an SWT driver chipped in with the point that it didn't need to be throughout the peak, just the high peak, and careful diagramming would ensure that most arrivals between 8 and 9 could be 10 car.

Now in the SN case, which of the following do they really mean?
a. every train on all those routes will be ten car,
b. some of the trains on all routes,
c. all of the trains on some of the routes
d. some of the trains on some of the routes...

Good point, take it thy've never actually shown anything about actual number of trains lengthen?

 

[swt_passenger]

Good point, take it thy've never actually shown anything about actual number of trains lengthen?

I just had another scan through the SL RUS, and exact numbers of trains doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned anywhere I can find. They usually say something like 'provide 10 car capability on routes through Balham' or wherever...

In the South Central ITT they do mention making use of 10 or 12 car platforms as they become available, but without any figures.

Can't find anything official online about the award of the franchise to GoVia, such as a DfT press release - a lot of stuff just isn't reachable through their archives - especially if it's before May 2010, funnily enough...

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Sorry, here it is:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064781108

Package 7 on pages 108 - 111. The last section gives the start dates for each station involved, some are this month.

Interestingly they've brought forward the extensions at Ashtead, Leatherhead and Box Hill & Westhumble to May/June 2012 as part of Southern's "Olympic preparedness programme"!

 

[jopsuk]

The Road Race cycling uses a loop on Boxhill, crowds are expected to be large.

 

[The Colonel]

I'd like to know how Guildford P1&2 and the bay at Weybridge are going to be done. Guildford will involve moving quite a bit of pointwork I think - I'd like to see plans for both those.

 

[Waldgrun]

Perhaps someone will confirm that my memory is not playing tricks. I remember that after they where delivered each unit was sent to Fratton depot for modification, the drivers seat had to be adapted to enable the units to be used D.O.O. The units where originally built for the Southwestern section of the Southern Region which didn't have D.O.O. but where diverted to the Central section which did.
I was told that these units where built so the Southwestern section could run 6 car formations in the off peak (1 x 455 + 1 x 456) and to provide toilet facilities on suburban services. Which, when you think about it was slightly pointless, due to the fact that only those travelling in the 456 unit would have been able to access the toilet! A downturn in traffic requirements meant their transfer to the Central section
I always believed it would have been better if the 48 class 456 vehicles had all been built with toilets fitted, the older 317 style cabs with corridor connection, which with a bit of shuffling about would have resulted in 24 toilet fitted 2 car units and 24 4 car units also fitted.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd like to know how Guildford P1&2 and the bay at Weybridge are going to be done. Guildford will involve moving quite a bit of pointwork I think - I'd like to see plans for both those.

There's a Network Change notice out for SW HLOS train lengthening phase 2, which includes the relevant routes; but unless you have internal access it is of little use as the Appendix with all the details in isn't online:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...WESX010 Wessex HLOS Train Lengthening Phase 2

You can see from the various SSWT rejection letters that it hasn't necessarily gone smoothly, but it seems to have all been agreed eventually.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Yes, the 456s most certainly went to Fratton, I have a picture of around 16 of them taken from the station footbridge sometime in summer 1991.

 

[Aictos]

Good on Dft and SWT! Southern won't need them after LO take over the SLL and they get their new 377/6s. SWT will be using alot of old Southern stock (456s, 460s) on their commuter network in a few years. I assume when they say 48 456's they mean either 24 456's or 48 carriages.

Adam

It's 48 carriages or in a nutshell the entire Class 456 fleet is moving eventually to South West Trains.

 

[Safety365]

Yes, the 456s most certainly went to Fratton, I have a picture of around 16 of them taken from the station footbridge sometime in summer 1991.

Care to share your picture?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This may have been missed - but they were originally built for the SW Division as was ....ended upon the Central side to allow scrapping of slam door stock.

 

[Southern]

Did a search on Google and found the following:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39707683@N04/7011716301
Clapham Yard

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39707683@N04/6921433903
Fratton

 

[Matt Taylor]

Care to share your picture?

I haven't got it in digital format and my scanner is 60 miles away

 

[pompeyfan]

i feel like the only person who is thinking this, so either my logic is wrong, or i'm the only person that's thought about this a little bit out of the box. people seem to be assuming that a 456 will be running around the Solent & Lymington lines.

personally i think that is ruddy rollocks. the 456s will release 450s which will be sent down south to cover the lymington shuttle, and cover the peak time unusual services, such as basingstoke - havant, portsmouth - Fareham etc, this will displace DMUs that currently run on these routes to actually run over non 3rd rail land.

 

[swt_passenger]

Now that SWT's press release has been amended to show the actual services that are being lengthened, I'd tend to agree that 450s will be released for use on Hampshire locals, so here's some suggestions.

But I'd also go further and suggest that because both the morning peak services off the Salisbury route are going from 6 to 9 cars that the only obvious source for them will be the pair of 159s that currently form the 0500 Portsmouth Harbour to Basingstoke, which then becomes the 0642 Basingstoke to Waterloo semi-fast.

The latter service is going to become an 8 car from 6 - but I reckon it will have to be 2 x 450 for the reasons just mentioned (where else can they find 2more 159s?)

However there are two Exeter services increased to 8 car in the pm peak, so they'll both need 158s added, but there are 158s available from the pm Hampshire locals.

To sum up therefore - I won't be at all surprised if the Lymington shuttle remains a 158 during the week, they don't yet seem to need it elsewhere.

 

[infobleep]

Interesting to see the trains.

Can anyone tell us if the 6am from Haslemere is extremely busy to the point of many people having to stand by the time they reach Woking? I imagine given it stops at lots of intermediate stations before reaching Guildford the answer is yes.

I semi-regularly get the the next one after it from Guildford which is also 5 carriages. About once or twice a month you might be standing from Guildford and if the people standing sat down, you'd probably never get a seat. That's not being lengthened.

It's a shame though that the 18.46 to Poole from Clapham Junction is not being extended from 5 cars. That means passengers to Guildford and beyond will continue to have to stand. Of course they could just run a fast service from Clapham Junction to Guildford at 18.52. Rather than trying to squeeze us onto the 18.46 which is extremely packed as it is.
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However it is always welcome ewa to here of train improvements, even if it doesn't affect me personally.

In my dream world I would love to be travelling to work by steam train but in reality modern and frequent trains are just what the south east needs.