4472 Flying Scotsman

[GNER 373]

I have heard a few grumblings from the older generation of my circle of Train friends that they aren't happy about the most famous steam loco in the worlds restoration by the NRM! I personally think as long as she's looked after and can run mainline again for everyone to enjoy there's no problem but I was shot down saying that the colour scheme does not match what theyre doing with certain design 'additions' and would rather see her in the darker Green of BR than the Apple Green LNER?

What's your take on this? Apologies if this has been posted as a topic previously it's 01:26am and I have little time to check this out!

Many thanks for any replies!

 

[NSEFAN]

By running on the mainline, parts wear out. Eventually so many parts have been replaced that it's not the original loco anymore. There's plenty of other fully working kettles for the mainline, it seems silly to spend a lot to keep another one going, when it arguably should be preserved properly.

 

[BestWestern]

By running on the mainline, parts wear out. Eventually so many parts have been replaced that it's not the original loco anymore. There's plenty of other fully working kettles for the mainline, it seems silly to spend a lot to keep another one going, when it arguably should be preserved properly.

A fair point, but the fame of 4472 means it makes money, and I'd have to temper your argument with the idea that a preserved loco has a brighter future if it can earn its keep. And I think a fair few steamfans would rather that a loco can be seen out and about doing it's thing than sat in a museum being polished to death, I know I certainly would. Mainline or not, those parts will wear and need replacing eventually. I know many people don't like the element of 'business' creeping into the preservation movement, but Scotsman is an icon and deserves its recognition as such. To have some commercialism is no bad thing for the heritage railway movement, most preserved lines would struggle to turn a profit if their only visitors were anoraks. So long as the real enthusiasts aren't being excluded, I personally think it's a good thing.

 

[cj_1985]

"Flying Scotsman" may make money.. or (more precisely) made money previously...
but as has been said there are plenty of other steam locos running on the mainline including other ex LNER/BR Pacifics...
not to mention "new" build Tornado...

i think it will be interesting when the time comes to see which way the paying public/enthusiasts vote with their cash and feet when/if it comes down to a choice between travelling behind 4472 or Tornado...

 

[mumrar]

I believe that due to it's fame, 4472 should be restored as a cosmetic exhibit at York. What point is the worldwide fame of the loco if people from other shores pitch up to our 'National Railway Museum' to find out our most famous engine isn't there, but taking some poshies on a diner who couldn't give two hoots what's up front?

 

[SouthEastern-465]

It will aparently be in wartime black LMS livery from what I have read.

 

[BestWestern]

I believe that due to it's fame, 4472 should be restored as a cosmetic exhibit at York. What point is the worldwide fame of the loco if people from other shores pitch up to our 'National Railway Museum' to find out our most famous engine isn't there, but taking some poshies on a diner who couldn't give two hoots what's up front?

You don't think it would be a hell of a shame to see her stuffed and stuck on a plinth?! Taking a working machine and degrading to being just another 'cosmetic exhibit' is always a backward step I feel. Those with a real interest in Scotsman specifically can always find out when and where she'll be steaming, and then see her in action.

 

[mumrar]

You don't think it would be a hell of a shame to see her stuffed and stuck on a plinth?! Taking a working machine and degrading to being just another 'cosmetic exhibit' is always a backward step I feel. Those with a real interest in Scotsman specifically can always find out when and where she'll be steaming, and then see her in action.

But those with a real interest are enthusiasts, so using that argument means you can't talk of the loco's fame. It's Joe Public both here and abroad who've also heard of this train, and its them that will spend money on something other than a group of enthusiasts. Wasting the exhorbetent amount of money sending it mainline that could be used on more than one other loco is madness.

As to 'her', it isn't Flying Scotswoman is it

Any preservation efforts need to be looked at on their own merits, and had this been any other loco then it wouldn't have been restored to running condition due to money. Heck, it's not even a 'proper' design of loco being as it was butchered from it's original build to try and make it work better than it did. I just hope that this engine doesn't claim another financial victim as it has so many in the past. I can see this one loco being responsible for the NRM charging an entry fee, and to then not even find it in there because it's off on a jolly, well it rankles a lot.

 

[BestWestern]

I don't condone the idea of one locomotive being repsonsible for the sacrifice of others, regardless of how iconic that loco may be. However, privately owned locos of all types are overhauled and maintained to mainline standards relatively often, and whilst it is recognised as being hugely costly, it is clearly something which can be achieved by the right people. Indeed, to bring Tornado back into the argument, if that group can manage the ultimate achievement through their efforts, there has to be scope for anybody with a loco which already exists! If locos which are less 'famous' than 4472 can go mainline and not send their owners bankrupt, then I see no reason why Soctsman should cause major issues for the NRM or anybody else. If the financial backing isn't currently there, then there is the option of seeking other backing, or allowing somebody else to take on the task, or indeed just waiting until the time is right. If the cost to the NRM is such that an entrance fee would be needed just to pay for Scotsman then clearly it is the wrong project at the wrong time.

If it can be managed properly, at a reasonable cost, then a project to keep 4472 mainline and paying it's way is surely preferable to having it stuck in a building somewhere doing nothing other than gathering dust. Indeed, why preserve anything if all we wish to do is stand and look; a photograph is a good deal cheaper. Both enthusiasts and the general public clearly appreciate the idea of a 'steam train' working as it was built to do, hence the many heritage lines that we are fortunate enough to have in this country. To clarify my previous thoughts, I am not suggesting that the value of an asset like Scotsman should be hiked to stupid levels which cause the enthusiast fraternity to struggle with it's upkeep, merely that if it can remain a profitable asset to whoever owns it then that is a good thing.

Having said all that of course, if there simply isn't anybody out there willing to pay, then static exhibition status is all that remains.

 

[Rich_D3167]

It will aparently be in wartime black LMS livery from what I have read.

Would you like to correct that? Wartime Black LNER Livery, I think!

 

[sprinterguy]

It will aparently be in wartime black LMS livery from what I have read.

It will only be in LNER* black livery during it's commissioning runs and steam tests through 'til June: After that it'll be back into LNER apple green livery in time for the most part of the summer, as well as having those flippin' inaccurate BR era German smoke deflectors reattached.

*If it was painted in LMS black livery, I think there'd be an awful lot of uproar, given that various fans of the loco aren't even happy when the prospect of more accurate BR green livery being applied gets bandied about EDIT: Rich D3167 just beat me to it!
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As to 'her', it isn't Flying Scotswoman is it

I think it's long been accepted that steam locomotives are referred to in the female context, even if it does cause a bit of head scratching with names like "Oliver Cromwell", "Winston Churchill" & "Sir Nigel Gresley"...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By being out on the main line, Flying Scotsman is accessible to a much bigger wedge of the general public, raising awareness of the National Railway Museum and British railway preservation in general, than if it was hidden away in the museum at York, as a lot of the higher priced luxury dining trains and day out jollies that are much of Flying Scotsman’s main line fare are occupied by non-railway enthusiasts who nonetheless do recognise the name “Flying Scotsman” despite knowing nowt more about Britain’s railways. “Flying Scotsman” is a very useful marketing tool for drawing wider attention to railway preservation in Britain. However, I don’t agree with the way that it’s overhaul seems to have taken precedence over everything else in terms of finance, facilities and man power any more than I agree with the overhyped reputation the loco has for what it is, but it is nonetheless a valuable asset to have, which should be out and about promoting itself as best it can. I’d rather have Britain’s railway relics out and working, earning their keep and doing what they were built for, than stuffed and mounted in a museum.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Would you like to correct that? Wartime Black LNER Livery, I think!

Sorry, I was thinking of the Black LMS livery...

I did mean to say Wartime LNER livery, but my mind was thinking of LMS!

 

[Yew]

Personally, I would say that maybe alternating mainline duties between 4472 and mallard could be a good idea. Let one work, Whilst the other is being polished and inspected/repaired?

 

[LE Greys]

Personally, I would say that maybe alternating mainline duties between 4472 and mallard could be a good idea. Let one work, Whilst the other is being polished and inspected/repaired?

Agreed there. I'd love to see Mallard out on the main line, as long as she stays as 4468 in Garter blue. Unfortunately, there's no chance of having her ready for the 3rd of July, 2013 (75 years after her record run).

As for the engine in my avatar. Firstly, make sure she has a single chimney and take the blinkers off. Otherwise, it's BR green time. Although A3s suit the blinkers, I reckon they look better without. However, she should certainly be out there both making money and as a massive travelling advertisement for the NRM. Everything looks better when it's working and in use, and Scotsman is no exception.

Finally, a bit more livery frothing. Why oh why did the MHR not restore Bittern as 4464 and paint her blue? She had previously been disguised as Silver Link, with single chimney and valances, so why not keep them attached? :roll:

 

[Daimler]

I believe that due to it's fame, 4472 should be restored as a cosmetic exhibit at York. What point is the worldwide fame of the loco if people from other shores pitch up to our 'National Railway Museum' to find out our most famous engine isn't there, but taking some poshies on a diner who couldn't give two hoots what's up front?

The NRM don't seem too bothered about this, though - neither Mallard nor Flying Scotsman will be in York once the latter has returned to the main line.

I think a fair number of non-enthusiasts will feel more happy about paying for a steam trip if they know 'The Flying Scotsman' will be hauling it, and this is probably an important factor in the NRM's decision to overhaul it - I expect it to be pretty much as busy as Tornado has been once it's back in service. Don't forget, when Tornado featured on Top Gear a year or two ago, the first choice for the producers was Flying Scotsman.

EDIT: As LE Greys rightly pointed out above, 4472 will be a superb travelling advertisement for the NRM, too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Finally, a bit more livery frothing. Why oh why did the MHR not restore Bittern as 4464 and paint her blue? She had previously been disguised as Silver Link, with single chimney and valances, so why not keep them attached? :roll:

Isn't Bittern's actual owner Jeremy Hosking? Presumably he fancied BR Green... Personally - providing it's appropriate for one of the preserved ones - I'd rather like to see an A4 in LNER apple green...

 

[LE Greys]

Isn't Bittern's actual owner Jeremy Hosking? Presumably he fancied BR Green... Personally - providing it's appropriate for one of the preserved ones - I'd rather like to see an A4 in LNER apple green...

Now that would look good! I think that Union of South Africa originally ran in apple green, but I'm not sure. Dominion of Canada may have done as well.

 

[GNER 373]

I think I stand with the majority here and thanks for the replies, I literally cannot wait to see 4472 on the mainline. After 60163 Tornado 'chasing' for the last few years it will be Flying Scotsman that brings the most crowds. It is the most famous Locomotive in the history of the railways alongside Mallard and Rocket and as someone who is quite young (well i'm the right side of 30 anyway!) it's something I didn't see lots of when growing up. I was educated in HST's and DMU's for years before the electrics came in and I think for the younger next generation of railway enthusiasts, being able to say 'I saw the Flying Scotsman' and it be on the mainline rather than a static exhibit (that they'll move to Shildon for a year or two like Mallard - Yorks simply not the same without her!) will make sure the legend lives on. As long as the people in charge care about HER enough not to use 4472 solely as a cash cow I can't think how anyone would suffer?!

 

[Yew]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_7etMrdBvg

was watching that, and thinking how awesome it would be to see 4472 and mallard racing (well doing lots of passing eachother)

 

[GNER 373]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_7etMrdBvg

was watching that, and thinking how awesome it would be to see 4472 and mallard racing (well doing lots of passing eachother)

Great Vid!

 

[sprinterguy]

Now that would look good! I think that Union of South Africa originally ran in apple green, but I'm not sure. Dominion of Canada may have done as well.

The five locos built for the Coronation train (4488-4492 "Union of South Africa", "Dominion of Canada", "Empire of India", "Commonwealth of Australia" and "Dominion of New Zealand") were turned out in garter blue in order to match the livery of the train they were to haul, although you are right in saying that 4488 "Union of South Africa" was initially finished in apple green with "Osprey" nameplates, but only briefly appeared like this on test before being repainted: 4489 "Dominion of Canada" ran in works grey with apple green wheels.

The A4s that wore the LNER apple green scheme in regular service were the first batch after the intitial build of four locos for the "Silver Jubilee", as they were intended for general express passenger duties: These were 4482-4487 (Golden Eagle, Kingfisher, Falcon, Kestrel, Merlin & Sea Eagle). Also, the first two after the Coronation batch received apple green (4493 "Woodcock" & 4494 "Osprey", both fitted with names discarded from the Coronation batch of locos), and 4495 was released to traffic in that livery but was quickly repainted into garter blue for the "West Riding Limited", at which point is was decided that all the remaining A4s would be painted garter blue.
(Thanks to www.gresley.org.uk with putting specific loco numbers to my memory, as well as Yeadon's register)

If we were to have a garter blue A4 on the main line that isn't Mallard, it should be "Union of South Africa", as a lot of the historical significance of the loco is lost on the observer when it is painted in BR green, as by that point in it's career the train it was built specifically to haul had been disbanded.

To see an LNER apple green A4 would be fantastic. I suppose the most authentic it could be made would be for "Union of South Africa" to wear the scheme, perhaps just for a couple of months after it's next release from overhaul, in the same way that "Flying Scotsman" will wear LNER black for a little while.

Personally, I wish that "Bittern" had been restored as "Silver Link", just for one boiler ticket: I can remember being taken to see it in silver form when I was about three years old, and being absolutely awestruck by the magnificence of it. I was completely gutted when I found out a few years later that the real "Silver Link" had been scrapped years ago

 

[DarloRich]

I believe that due to it's fame, 4472 should be restored as a cosmetic exhibit at York. What point is the worldwide fame of the loco if people from other shores pitch up to our 'National Railway Museum' to find out our most famous engine isn't there, but taking some poshies on a diner who couldn't give two hoots what's up front?

I disagree - i think it is much better to have working exhibits. Surely the money brought in from trips behind Flying Scotsman will help pay for other restopration projects.

The NRM are doing a very thorough overhual of Flying Scotsman. The standard fo work seems to eb very high.

In any event i dont thinkthe NRM are going to be to bothered about displaying locos juding by theier plans for NRM+!

http://www.nrm.org.uk/AboutUs/nrmplus.aspx

 

[mumrar]

Surely the money brought in from trips behind Flying Scotsman will help pay for other restopration projects.

But most of that money will come from enthusiasts on those trips. Not many people are going to come from abroad solely to go behind 4472. However, they may plan a stop at the NRM whilst having a holiday, but only a tiny minority would come from abroad just for a trip behind it. Half of the trips it will run those who pay won't care less what's on the front, those that do care won't be paying, they'll be lineside for the photos for free.

 

[Crossforth]

I'd want to pay to ride behind Scotsman...

 

[DarloRich]

But most of that money will come from enthusiasts on those trips. Not many people are going to come from abroad solely to go behind 4472. However, they may plan a stop at the NRM whilst having a holiday, but only a tiny minority would come from abroad just for a trip behind it. Half of the trips it will run those who pay won't care less what's on the front, those that do care won't be paying, they'll be lineside for the photos for free.

But they will - I travelled on the Scarborough Spa Express before Scotsman went in for overhaul and it was a sell out. Most of the people on the train were not enthusiasts they had travelled form all other the place simply for the journey. It was mainly family trip out types, grandparents birthday presents. This was at a time when I was a "lapsed" enthusiasts so I went simply because it WAS Flying Scotsman

IF people visit the museum during the summer running period of the Scarbourgh Spa Express they will very quickly find out when Scotsman is running. I think many people could (are) be tempted with a trip. This year’s prices are here:

http://www.westcoastrailways.co.uk/sse/dates.html

There is a great deal of advertising in York already for these services it will be much greater when Flying Scotsman returns.

I accept what you say for the more "premier dining" type trips. But even then there will be an element of attraction because of Flying Scotsman haulage. It is a very famous engine and very popular with the public (see the fund raising drive to buy it for the NRM).

 

[deltic1989]

For my part I would love to see Scotsman steaming again. I go to railway muesums and I see the static exibits and whilst they do look very pretty all polished and shiny so you can see your face in them, they seem dead to me. Steam locomotives are living breathing things and to polish the metal away and stuff them in a shed so that little kids can wipe thier sticky paws all over them is a crying shame. I much prefer to see them out on the mainline doing what they were designed to do. Scotsman is a loco close to my heart too she is the one that started me off on the road to rail loving, I remember seeing her at the NVR when I was 7 or 8 (i'm 22 on Friday) and she just sat there at the platform sizzleing away and oozing power, even at that tender age having previously not known anything about railways exept reading Thomas books I knew she was something special. This seems to go for a lot of people, for example if you ask anyone with little or no knowledge of railways to name a loco 9 times out of 10 you will hear the answer Flying scotsman (i just tried this before i typed it by ringing 10 friends, I have too much time on my hands), also on my last visit to the NRM i saw a little boy couldnt have been more than 5 give the contents of his piggy bank to aid Scotsmans restoration such is her fame. There is one thing that erks me though..... those flaming German type smoke deflectors if they are going to paint her Apple Green then surel someone needs to point out that the blinkers need to go in the corner of the workshop till they decide to do Brinswick Green again.

 

[GNER 373]

I'd want to pay to ride behind Scotsman...

Me too! I cannot wait to see what runs she's doing! I think it'll be the most sought after trip of the year! I'm saving now! I have of course given to the NRM just a small amount to help them reach their target. If anyones interested in giving something then check out http://www.flyingscotsman.org.uk/sitecore/content/SOS_Home/sos.aspx
You get a nice certificate and your name on the wall of fame, but knowing your giving to something you believe in is the best feeling!

 

[Yew]

I was thinking of the four most famous trains ever, and I could only think of these

Rocket
Mallard
Flying scotsman (4472)
The orient express (lots of trains hauled that, didnt 4472 do it one time?)

 

[Bomber]

I was thinking of the four most famous trains ever, and I could only think of these

Rocket
Mallard
Flying scotsman (4472)
The orient express (lots of trains hauled that, didnt 4472 do it one time?)

Pedant mode on. Rocket, Mallard and Flying Scotsman (4472) are locos, trains are a loco or locos and a set of coaches, therefore the Orient Express is a train. The fact that there was also a train from Kings Cross to Edinburgh called the Flying Scotsman helps the confusion. Pedant mode off.
Sorry but it had to be said, nothing annoys the steam enthusiast more than people calling steam locos, trains...

 

[Yew]

I accept your point, however it does get confusing when we have 4472 called the flying scotsman, pulling carreges as a train in the flying scotsman :/

 

[LE Greys]

I accept your point, however it does get confusing when we have 4472 called the flying scotsman, pulling carreges as a train in the flying scotsman :/

The name dates back to long before the GNR built No.1472 (as she was originally). The Special Scotch Express (nicknamed "Flying Scotsman") first ran in 1862, as a joint service between the GNR, NER and NBR. Departure from King's Cross was 10:00 a.m. It took 10½ hours to Edinburgh with a lunch stop and engine change at York, but times gradually fell. I think they achieved 6½ hours in the 1890s with Stirling singles and Wordsell 4-4-0s (not equalled until A4s took over the service) but there was a slow-down over safety concerns. The GNR chose to name the third of their new Pacifics after the train's nickname primarily as a publicity move, and the train itself made the name official when the LNER took over the next year.