442's to Grand Central?

[Kris]

Hi all - ign2: here but 19 years on the railway. Not used to this site yet so forgive me if my I make a mistake.

Talking to a certain member of Control at Waterloo the other day - I heard that Grand Central are looking at the possibility of usinf 442's with Class 67 locos. 125mph running! (Hope they do something about the drafts and whistling noises).

 

[Tom]

They've already obtained HSTs and bought them outright AFAIK so I think Grand Central running 442s is idiotic...

Welcome to the forum BTW.

 

[Coxster]

Interesting mock-up though

 

[Kris]

S'true, but they could get a very good leasing deal on the pigs and 67's. Might need them for the proposed Bradford services or spares/increased services.

Driver's dream not the tunnel vision nightmare that is a Disastro

 

[Tom]

I think there are more chances of them returning to SWT than them going off there...

 

[Kris]

Hmm. Don't know. Waiting for the new B&Q, Next, Boots etc, retail park to open at Branksome. Watch this space.

 

[Tom]

The new Castlepoint!

 

[class 313]

Also FCC are looking into 442s, but the most chance of the 442s going somewhere is Southern and GEx.

 

[Tom]

LOL!

FCC? 442s!
It simply wouldn't work for them. They've looked into them on behalf of Southern though!

The best chances of 442s going anywhere are with Gatwick Express, as 1 is already with them.

Also I'd say expect the 442s to be back with South West Trains within the next year.

 

[paul1609]

Southern havent fully discounted them but would prefer a new build of 377s to allow them to cascade the 319s to FCC. As it is as the moment they have the 319s on lease to 2009 so if the dft or first want to transfer them before then they have to pay all the extra costs involved.

As to SWT I understand that the new franchise has been hit very hard by loss of revenue caused by the overun of the Portsmouth Area resignalling. Alledgedly negotiations over compensation are proving difficult and SWT are threatening court action. I cant really see SWT leasing anymore stock at the current time

 

[Hentis]

The new Castlepoint!

Lets hope they get the right mix of concrete this time what ever it will be.

To be honest 442's are designed for 100 mph running.... Although

One has officially attained a speed of 109 MPH
One also unofficially attained a speed during testing of 123 MPH!!

As to SWt taking back the pigs :banghead: Not 100% sure that would happen. Look at all the staff that would have to be re trained!! Bournemouth Depot is very likely to be ran down very quickly from its train cleaning and toilet duties, they have no need to keep the slam door n=units on the Lymington branch they have proved that by running 450s up and down the branch!!!
Its only a matter of time folks.

Cheers

Hentis

 

[Tom]

I reckon they could hit 140mph as they're basically on Mk4 bogies apart from the ones in the MBRSM.

 

[rob s]

were they built with the space for the pantograph for AC conversion as Grand Central are planning an ECML service...

 

[5872]

As you all have said it is very unlikely for pigs and 67s to operate because the 442s middle coach is the heavist out the 5 and would take along time to get to 125mph not being under alll the power there used to the first run had to of them and they reach 109mph but thats 2 of them the future of these units hangs in the balance at eastleigh and bomo but the next use seems to be GatEx for defanate but I did read that to 458s 8001 and 8002 went to GatEx but never entered service even know they had been converted to all the modifications

 

[Tom]

Can you talk in sense please?

I'm told that the "unofficial" time to get to 121mph was about 3 minutes... between Basingstoke and Winchester on the downhill gradient. A 442 is far lighter than a 444 or 450, say.

8001 and 8002 are already back with SWT and have been in service....

The 442s will almost definately be used as there will be failures no doubt when they require 100% fleet availability on the 460s, I'd go far as to say that a regular diagram will appear as 442.

 

[Donny Dave]

There was a post on EOTL not so long back about using a pair of 442s and cl90 on KX - Leeds services. I cant remember it fully, but it said something like, take out 1 of the buffets, and run them in 9 car formations, they could be operated in push-pull mode, and offer 500+ seats in standard class and nearly 100 in first class. That would free up some of GNERs stock, so maybe GC could lease some of that.

That way, even though GNER would be losing ORCATS revenue, they would make some back from GC....

 

[Hentis]

As you all have said it is very unlikely for pigs and 67s to operate because the 442s middle coach is the heavist out the 5 and would take along time to get to 125mph not being under alll the power there used to the first run had to of them and they reach 109mph but thats 2 of them the future of these units hangs in the balance at eastleigh and bomo but the next use seems to be GatEx for defanate but I did read that to 458s 8001 and 8002 went to GatEx but never entered service even know they had been converted to all the modifications

The 109 MPh speed that was attained under special dispensation for the record attempt, However the 123 mph was NOT SO I really think that 125 mph is out of the question. As to Grand central unless they stick a 67 at each end then no as they wont be able to work in Push pull formation as its the wrong type of multiple worlking. Although 2 442's did go off lease for a short period of time last year for the 42 way jumper modifications for fitmant of PIS displays like the Desiros have. I do not know what the numbers were either. Also remember that the 442's did have PIS screens above the corridor connections. But the Guys who wrote the DDOA would have a keniption fit as these were smaller than the lettering on the 458's!!!!

I know there is some sort of question of them at Southern and its not about 377 units but apparently its to do with 2 of the platforms at clapham that Southern use. The 442's for Gatwick are assured for use. As to when I dont know, I have not been told. The planned 442 move this morning to Eastleigh did not materialise for some strange reason.

Cheers

Tony.

Cheers

Hentis

 

[Hentis]

Can you talk in sense please?

I'm told that the "unofficial" time to get to 121mph was about 3 minutes... between Basingstoke and Winchester on the downhill gradient. A 442 is far lighter than a 444 or 450, say.

8001 and 8002 are already back with SWT and have been in service....

The 442s will almost definately be used as there will be failures no doubt when they require 100% fleet availability on the 460s, I'd go far as to say that a regular diagram will appear as 442.

Thats the full total amount of cars.

444 224 tons
442 191.4 tons
450 162 tons

Just for those that do not realise the 442's will only work in multiple with the following Tracition without extensive modification :-

Class 411, 421,423 33/1's and 73's

They wont work with a 90, 91, 92, 66, 67, 56, 47, 37 31 or 08!!!

Sure they can pull them thats about all.

Cheers

Hentis

 

[Tom]

Although 2 442's did go off lease for a short period of time last year for the 42 way jumper modifications for fitmant of PIS displays like the Desiros have. I do not know what the numbers were either. Also remember that the 442's did have PIS screens above the corridor connections.

I'm told it was 2415 and 2416, ironically the ones for scrap now...

 

[thefab444]

The 442s had PIS screens?!? Above the corridors?!? When was this?

(I seem to remember someone saying this ages ago and they were getting confused with 458s?)

 

[Hentis]

The 442s had PIS screens?!? Above the corridors?!? When was this?

(I seem to remember someone saying this ages ago and they were getting confused with 458s?)

Ok let me clarify this a little. The 442 had PIS screens much smaller than whats around to day above the corridor connections doors on the outside of the fron and rear cabs.

above the black part of the doors (middle) you should just be able to make out a destination of Waterloo. I have better ones but cannot show them as of yet as the site is not ready.

Cheers

Hentis

 

[thefab444]

http://mark-jamieson.fotopic.net/p36400803.html

Is the green writing on the top of the corridor covers what you mean; doesn't appear to be working in your picture?

 

[Coxster]

You learn something new every day

 

[Kris]

The destination screen above the bulkhead door lasted all of ...... 10 seconds. First pidgeon strike and that was it. Should have been put inside the windscreen like a 159.

Before Black Boxes were fitted, it wasn't unusual to hit 119mph especially with the old stopping pattern Waterloo - So'ton Parkway.

If one actually removed the traction motors completely - surely this would cut down on weight and not affect the ride quality in the MBLS?

(One of the the T.C.S.'s and me wound up a newbie driver - said that they were going to remove the MBLS and the TSW to have a dedicated 3 car for the Lymmy branch - he fell for it :grin: )

Fun with a pig windscreen : -

 

[Turbostar]

were they built with the space for the pantograph for AC conversion as Grand Central are planning an ECML service...

No.

Mart

 

[Hentis]

http://mark-jamieson.fotopic.net/p36400803.html

Is the green writing on the top of the corridor covers what you mean; doesn't appear to be working in your picture?

Yes thats correct. It is working but like Kris stated, they did not last very long and became plated over.

Cheers

Tony.

PS more vidoes gone up on U tube tonight.

 

[class 313]

Before Black Boxes were fitted, it wasn't unusual to hit 119mph especially with the old stopping pattern Waterloo - So'ton Parkway.

The speed limit for 3rd rail is 100mph anyway.

 

[Kris]

Technically - yes. But the old boys used to like to push the parameters a bit - especially where they knew it was safe to do so.

 

[class 313]

Technically - yes. But the old boys used to like to push the parameters a bit - especially where they knew it was safe to do so.

How? The units would need more power, plus the motors wouldn't come off as good as they went in...

 

[Coxster]

How? The units would need more power, plus the motors wouldn't come off as good as they went in...

100mph isn't the maximum speed something can do - it's the maximum permitted speed. Same as a HST is limited to 125mph but as we all know they are capable of much more! REPs used to hit around 110mph over Worting and I have an old photo in a book to prove it

Kris: Is that Basingstoke? Looks a bit like it with platform 5 on the left and the gantry above with the fast line signal on the right. The thing is in the 2003 Guards Route Learning & Assesment Pack (still issued last year!) the up slow signal [YW23] has two feathers and a single theatre box rather than just a single theatre box like in your pics. Have the feathers now gone or isn't it Basing at all?