Bear with me I'm new to all this and memories play tricks, so do good ale and whisky.It all began in the early 70's close to Wimbledon where 4-Subs ruled the roost. Spotting trips were the footbridges just south of Wimbledon.All electric apart from the occasional 33 thundering through or the 73s which called in at the goodsyard.
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4 Car Suburbia
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There's plenty of us on here that like a bit nostalgia. Any stories more than welcome and welcome to you by the way.
Good ale and whiskey, a heady and pleasant combination.
Thankyou.
I soon moved on to spotting at Clapham Junction, where I would clear most of the South Western and Central division units. The last of the VEPs and CIGs were being introduced and EPBs were taking over some SUB work. The Peps I recall seemed very futuristic, sliding doors belonged on underground trains. What I enjoyed at Clapham were the locos, mainly the ubiquitous 33s and 73s plus my favourite, the 74s. Other locos were mainly 47s, though there were 25s the odd 40, and on at least one occasion a Western and not to forget a pair of 20s. Warships had gone from these lines at this time.
Anyway my love of locos was soon to take me further afield, the London termini.
I soon moved on to spotting at Clapham Junction, where I would clear most of the South Western and Central division units. The last of the VEPs and CIGs were being introduced and EPBs were taking over some SUB work. The Peps I recall seemed very futuristic, sliding doors belonged on underground trains. What I enjoyed at Clapham were the locos, mainly the ubiquitous 33s and 73s plus my favourite, the 74s. Other locos were mainly 47s, though there were 25s the odd 40, and on at least one occasion a Western and not to forget a pair of 20s. Warships had gone from these lines at this time.
Anyway my love of locos was soon to take me further afield, the London termini.
frodshamfella
Established Member
When I lived in the southeast up to the 80s, pretty much all the slam door EMUs out of peak hours on suburban services were 4 coaches, going to 6, 8 or 10 in the peaks ( the longer trains often extended into the evenings too). I used to travel from Bexleyheath to Charing Cross and to Cannon Street. Did same trip last weekend, and the trains were longer, but not full, seemed a bit over kill.
telstarbox
Established Member
One of my first visits to a termini was The Cross. I recall maybe not this time but being invited into the cab of a Deltic, I'll never forget that,I'm sure it was Pinza that was my favourite for some reason.The driver and his mate were well proud of their charge and who can blame them.
Kings Cross over the years became a favourite, you never knew what might show up, There would always seem to be a 40 hiding behind the shed and if you timed it right there would be a LU battery loco hauling some 38 stock into the tunnel on York Rd side
Kings Cross over the years became a favourite, you never knew what might show up, There would always seem to be a 40 hiding behind the shed and if you timed it right there would be a LU battery loco hauling some 38 stock into the tunnel on York Rd side
I'm glad they've included some lovely,lovely EPB's. Suburban travel in true comfort.
I know it was elsewhere, but my experience in the 1970s, away from Somerset, was of the Wirral electric services, 3-car units strengthened to 6-car in the peaks. Now quite some management attention was given each day to whether to run doubled up or not. Pre-Christmas shopping weeks, fine (only) summer Sundays to the beach termini, etc, they knew their expected loads and assigned stock accordingly. If there was a sudden rush the duty inspector shunted things out pronto.
Nowadays it seems stock allocation is decided by reams of ops management, none of whom seem to have a clue. People unable to board at weekends on London suburban services (especially those who have 2-car units available) while two-thirds of the fleet sits in sidings.
The battery loco would have been taking Northern City line stock from Drayton Park to Neasden depot.
telstarbox
Established Member
Cheers, some splendid shots in there - particularly the NSE Kent Link days !
Springs Branch
Established Member
The title of this thread prompted some memories of my first visits to 4-car suburbia in the 1970s.
I grew up in the north-west and got an interest in trains in the early 1970s. I was soon familiar with the LMR and Eastern Region scene in that era. This meant Class 45, 47 and 50s, lots of blue & grey loco hauled Mk1s, low density DMUs in all-over blue and still a reasonable number of old-school goods and loose coupled coal trains trundling around behind a Class 24, 25 or 40.
After a few years of this diet, I made my first trips as a young teenager onto the Southern Region not for train-spotting purposes, rather on journeys to assorted destinations such as Twickenham, Datchet and Haslemere, so invariably on the South Western lines out of Waterloo or Clapham Junction.
Never having thought much about the Southern, my first impressions were something along the lines of one of those stories of someone who wakes from a long sleep to find himself in an Alternate Reality. On the top level, things south of the river looked quite familiar. The trains were painted the same all-over blue with yellow fronts, the BR double arrow logo was the same, as was other paraphernalia like the post-war concrete lamp posts on station platforms (before Network SouthEast and their red paintbrushes). But beneath the surface things felt strangely alien to me.
First of all there were so many trains scuttling about mainly the topic of this thread, 4-car SUB or EPB EMUs and so many passengers even in off-peak. In the North, the early 1970s was very much a low point for service frequency and local trains were usually few and at irregular intervals, at least until PTEs got properly behind supporting their railways later in the decade. Not so on the Southern, where there were long-established 20 or 30 minute clock-face frequencies. On many inner suburban routes you didnt need a timetable or careful trip planning, just turn up and a train to Waterloo or London Bridge would arrive soon enough.
Then there was the apparent uniformity and standardization on the Southern. I was used to quite obvious differences in appearance between the wide range of First Generation DMU classes still in service in the 1970s Cravens, Derby, Gloucester, Birmingham RC&W, MetroCammell, Swindon units all had their characteristic look, and some were definitely more comfortable to ride in than others. Trains could be anything from a 2-car DMU to a loco hauling 12 or 13 Mk1 or Mk2s up north. In 4-car suburbia, to my eye, there were only two types of train here:
The two-digit codes displayed on the front of trains (but nothing showed a proper alphabetic destination) also added a mysterious touch. Ive since read that posters were displayed at SR stations giving passengers the key to the route numbers, but I dont remember ever seeing one and thought these codes must be some kind of Southern secret handed down from father to son and not meant for interlopers like me.
Next there was the lack of dereliction on the Southern. The late 1960s and early 70s was probably the worst period for having large swaths of derelict railway land, redundant buildings and abandoned sidings and dismantled track bed in full view of the traveller. Eventually most of this got tidied up, sold off or nature simply took over, but at that time there was so much depressing dereliction in my home area which simply wasnt there in 4-car suburbia. Of course, you could argue rightly there was plenty of railway dereliction to be found on the Southern too back then, including in central London, but it just seemed less noticeable to me on the lines out of Waterloo.
Finally, despite the overwhelming prevalence of EMUs, there was the occasional diesel loco, which might be seen at Clapham Junction or speeding through third-rail-land. I dont remember ever seeing any DC electric locos on my trips, but I always thought the Class 33 diesels looked insipid and not very powerful. I was used to the charismatic Deltics, the weight and whistling turbocharger of a Class 40 or the sleek Inter City-ness (back then) of Class 47 or 50s. The Class 33, I thought at one point, was a sort of office-based, middle-class version of the working-class manual labourer Class 25s.
So thats my own view of 4-car suburbia as an outsider looking in. Thanks for prompting the memories not a subject Ive thought about for the past 45 years.
I grew up in the north-west and got an interest in trains in the early 1970s. I was soon familiar with the LMR and Eastern Region scene in that era. This meant Class 45, 47 and 50s, lots of blue & grey loco hauled Mk1s, low density DMUs in all-over blue and still a reasonable number of old-school goods and loose coupled coal trains trundling around behind a Class 24, 25 or 40.
After a few years of this diet, I made my first trips as a young teenager onto the Southern Region not for train-spotting purposes, rather on journeys to assorted destinations such as Twickenham, Datchet and Haslemere, so invariably on the South Western lines out of Waterloo or Clapham Junction.
Never having thought much about the Southern, my first impressions were something along the lines of one of those stories of someone who wakes from a long sleep to find himself in an Alternate Reality. On the top level, things south of the river looked quite familiar. The trains were painted the same all-over blue with yellow fronts, the BR double arrow logo was the same, as was other paraphernalia like the post-war concrete lamp posts on station platforms (before Network SouthEast and their red paintbrushes). But beneath the surface things felt strangely alien to me.
First of all there were so many trains scuttling about mainly the topic of this thread, 4-car SUB or EPB EMUs and so many passengers even in off-peak. In the North, the early 1970s was very much a low point for service frequency and local trains were usually few and at irregular intervals, at least until PTEs got properly behind supporting their railways later in the decade. Not so on the Southern, where there were long-established 20 or 30 minute clock-face frequencies. On many inner suburban routes you didnt need a timetable or careful trip planning, just turn up and a train to Waterloo or London Bridge would arrive soon enough.
Then there was the apparent uniformity and standardization on the Southern. I was used to quite obvious differences in appearance between the wide range of First Generation DMU classes still in service in the 1970s Cravens, Derby, Gloucester, Birmingham RC&W, MetroCammell, Swindon units all had their characteristic look, and some were definitely more comfortable to ride in than others. Trains could be anything from a 2-car DMU to a loco hauling 12 or 13 Mk1 or Mk2s up north. In 4-car suburbia, to my eye, there were only two types of train here:
- Inner-suburban (all-over blue, doors to each bay and the utilitarian flat fronts of the EPB & SUBs), or
- Outer-suburban trains in blue & grey livery.
The two-digit codes displayed on the front of trains (but nothing showed a proper alphabetic destination) also added a mysterious touch. Ive since read that posters were displayed at SR stations giving passengers the key to the route numbers, but I dont remember ever seeing one and thought these codes must be some kind of Southern secret handed down from father to son and not meant for interlopers like me.
Next there was the lack of dereliction on the Southern. The late 1960s and early 70s was probably the worst period for having large swaths of derelict railway land, redundant buildings and abandoned sidings and dismantled track bed in full view of the traveller. Eventually most of this got tidied up, sold off or nature simply took over, but at that time there was so much depressing dereliction in my home area which simply wasnt there in 4-car suburbia. Of course, you could argue rightly there was plenty of railway dereliction to be found on the Southern too back then, including in central London, but it just seemed less noticeable to me on the lines out of Waterloo.
Finally, despite the overwhelming prevalence of EMUs, there was the occasional diesel loco, which might be seen at Clapham Junction or speeding through third-rail-land. I dont remember ever seeing any DC electric locos on my trips, but I always thought the Class 33 diesels looked insipid and not very powerful. I was used to the charismatic Deltics, the weight and whistling turbocharger of a Class 40 or the sleek Inter City-ness (back then) of Class 47 or 50s. The Class 33, I thought at one point, was a sort of office-based, middle-class version of the working-class manual labourer Class 25s.
So thats my own view of 4-car suburbia as an outsider looking in. Thanks for prompting the memories not a subject Ive thought about for the past 45 years.
It must have been the mid-1980s that I went from the Wirral to Euston, Waterloo, and then to Earlsfield. Never really noticed the last bit was a SUB not an EPB until getting out at Earlsfield, where the guard was out on the platform waving a green flag, and the driver looking back. The Wirral electrics had cracked this one with starting bells in 1938, and even the DMUs radiating from Taunton in my childhood likewise.
I believe the SUBs had no low voltage supply for any auxiliaries, that only came with the EPBs. It seemed a bizarre requirement for a service stopping every couple of minutes in the 1980s. I wonder why they never sorted it out at periodic overhaul time.
I believe the SUBs had no low voltage supply for any auxiliaries, that only came with the EPBs. It seemed a bizarre requirement for a service stopping every couple of minutes in the 1980s. I wonder why they never sorted it out at periodic overhaul time.
MichaelAMW
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Two thirds? Do you think you might be exaggerating a touch...?
My own 4-car suburbia upbringing was to see the class 115 DMUs out of Marylebone where I lived and the various EMUs, almost all 4-car, when seeing relatives in north Surrey. The one exception was the 2-car unit, a 2-EPB I presume, on the Weybridge - Staines shuttle.
These pics reminded me of the de-icers/departmentals which were always hard to see, they always seemed to hide in the depths of their depots. Sometimes you could see one through a broken window in the Durnsford Rd shed or parked outside across the road in Wimbledon Park sidings.
Thinking back to seeing the South Eastern stock I must have seen a lot at Victoria because I don't remember many visits to London Bridge. Victoria always meant a walk round the side to see which 71 was stabled there for the day.
Thinking back to seeing the South Eastern stock I must have seen a lot at Victoria because I don't remember many visits to London Bridge. Victoria always meant a walk round the side to see which 71 was stabled there for the day.
In the late 90's I spent a couple of weeks temping in a factory outside Chart Leacon and seeing a fine collection of super-annulated departmental SUB's and EPB's
frodshamfella
Established Member
What I do recall as a lad, seeing a 2 car service, which was something id never seen, as from my neck of the woods (Bexleyheath) it was never less than 4 car. What I was watching was the London Bridge to Victoria service ( Now gone I understand). I took this route a few times, actually found it less stress stressful than the tube ! Later I discovered other 2 car routes, Grove Park to Bromley North, Elmers End to Addiscombe and Sanderstead.
No, not at all. Recall being on a single Thameslink 4-car on a Saturday mid-morning which arrived Gatwick full, left there grossly standing, and left people behind at East Croydon. Then it passed Selhurst depot where every track was full to the buffers with Southern and Thameslink units laid up for the weekend.
Same route, when Southern had 456 2-car units they used them, singly, at weekends, which again left people behind on the line into London Bridge.
GW do likewise, 2-car units on weekdays out of Paddington outside the peak.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Wimbledon - West Croydon , Tattenham Corner - Purley (to attach to a Caterham portion)
I have seen pictures of 2-EPB Sunday trains on the Mid Kent in the late 50s, and in the 70s the xx50 Victoria-Gillingham was often a single 2HAP which looked very odd belting through Shortlands (the xx55 Ashford had gone over to VEPs by then but its xx49 predecessor might well have also been 2EPB in the early 60s).
Outside the suburban area there were plenty of 2car workings.
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The Ashford train might have been a 2HAP in the early 60's as it was a longer distance train.
Oops! 2HAP of course, post corrected...been on holiday too long. Thanks.
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ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Staines - Weybridge was another haunt of 2EPB workings ..
I recall one evening of operational desperation at Waterloo when the 21xx Guildford via Cobham was a 2EPB , the Oxshot suits were not impressed with the lack of first class and a bog. Still it was a train , which went fast to Surbiton to try and reduce the crowding.
I recall one evening of operational desperation at Waterloo when the 21xx Guildford via Cobham was a 2EPB , the Oxshot suits were not impressed with the lack of first class and a bog. Still it was a train , which went fast to Surbiton to try and reduce the crowding.
satisnek
Member
I've never thought about this, growing up as I did at the very extremity of 4 Car Suburbia (far beyond the Hersham Boys and 6 miles south of Stanley Road ); the 12 car Pompey expresses were 'the business', the diesel traffic on the Reading and Redhill lines was 'interesting' and everything else was 'humdrum'. But yes, in the late '70s/early '80s from Guildford there was the 4 car unit (usually a Wimbledon CIG) forming the half-hourly Ascot or Waterloo via Ascot service in Platform 8, whilst over the other side in Platform 1 a 4 VEP formed the half-hourly New Line Service (First Class and bogs, they never had it so good!). The Waterloo via Woking stoppers (half hourly with alternate trains continuing all stations to Portsmouth & Southsea LL) were also a single 4 VEP in the off-peak, often strengthened with EPBs at peak times.
Ah yes, but like me your memories are probably of bouncing around in them on off-peak services. Commuter travel, particularly a middle seat in a six-a-side compartment must have been pretty grim.
Fascinating to read a 'mirror image' view, in relation to my own rare forays North of Watford at the time, particularly the 'dereliction' aspect. I can well remember visiting Manchester Victoria in the late '70s, when Platforms 1-3 were still extant but with the track lifted and then there was the rusting hulk of Exchange station still standing. Now Guildford at the time was in the upper echelons of decrepitude by Southern standards, but this was several levels beyond!
); the 12 car Pompey expresses were 'the business', the diesel traffic on the Reading and Redhill lines was 'interesting' and everything else was 'humdrum'. But yes, in the late '70s/early '80s from Guildford there was the 4 car unit (usually a Wimbledon CIG) forming the half-hourly Ascot or Waterloo via Ascot service in Platform 8, whilst over the other side in Platform 1 a 4 VEP formed the half-hourly New Line Service (First Class and bogs, they never had it so good!). The Waterloo via Woking stoppers (half hourly with alternate trains continuing all stations to Portsmouth & Southsea LL) were also a single 4 VEP in the off-peak, often strengthened with EPBs at peak times.Ah yes, but like me your memories are probably of bouncing around in them on off-peak services. Commuter travel, particularly a middle seat in a six-a-side compartment must have been pretty grim.
Fascinating to read a 'mirror image' view, in relation to my own rare forays North of Watford at the time, particularly the 'dereliction' aspect. I can well remember visiting Manchester Victoria in the late '70s, when Platforms 1-3 were still extant but with the track lifted and then there was the rusting hulk of Exchange station still standing. Now Guildford at the time was in the upper echelons of decrepitude by Southern standards, but this was several levels beyond!
I did end up catching them on occasional evening peak services. They were certainly no worse than being jammed between two people on any other train today. Peak time travel on a commuter route is what it is unfortunately.
StephenHunter
Established Member
Straps for standees to hold on have been around since the LNWR electrified the Watford DC line in 1915.
Feathers44
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And there's my childhood right there.
Happy days. Once we were old enough we were allowed to walk to the footbridges on our own.If you were standing on an EPB, you wouldn't need a strap as the substantial luggage racks were easy to hold on to.
Anyhow, I hate standing, so I prefer the option of having a seat to this day.
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