4-BIG at GCR and other Mark 1 Slammers

[STEVIEBOY1]

Thread split from http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=84653

Having volunteered on both halves of the railway, I can say that this is the biggest news I can imagine. Well done to all concerned, THANK YOU to all who have donated and Good Luck going Forward .

The fund now stands at £1/3 million and rising. My membership of both North & South has been renewed together with my first bridge fund donation.

Regarding a previous comment regarding Ruddington, in the short term this could easily be rectified by a 'Station Pilot' leading the train from Ruddington Junction into the site. The locos would then change ends, the train returns to Ruddington Junction, Station Pilot disconnects and the train proceeds Southwards with the locomotive at the correct end for the rest of the line.

Ideally the southern chord would be the best option as it allows direct access to the site plus the opportunity to turn locos & stock.

Yes, I agree with this. I have been on both parts of the GCR and enjoyed it very much, I went on the gala weekend in October and it was a great day. In spite of a busy service and lots of people, everything seemed to run very well and all the trains I went on were on time. It was a very intensive service.

(When I went a few years ago, they had a 4 coach electric train from the southern region, that was hauled by a diesel loco, do they still have that unit?)

Looking forward to travelling on the joined up GCR and perhaps the little branch to Mount Sorrel too, (the transport centre at Ruddington is very interesting too.)

 

[matt]

The 4-BIG unit was subject to metal theft so some of the coaches went to Network Rail for test train use and the rest was scrapped.

 

[fgwrich]

The 4-BIG unit was subject to metal theft so some of the coaches went to Network Rail for test train use and the rest was scrapped.

There still seems to be some debate about the 4-BIG, some saying that it was the 'copper fairies' with others staying that certain pieces were effectively removed without permission to order. Whichever is true I have no idea, but it is rather sad that given that there were still a fair few sacrificial Southern EMUs around that still could have donated many parts to get the 4-BIG back into traffic again, coupled with the quick sale to RVEL & Network Rail for major conversion then the hole case did seem rather odd - why go all the way to restore an entire unit, complete with matching buffet car, only to get shot of it pretty quickly afterwards? Whatever happened though its a shame to have seen that go, especially considering the effort made with it compared to ex Southern EMUs on other lines.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

There still seems to be some debate about the 4-BIG, some saying that it was the 'copper fairies' with others staying that certain pieces were effectively removed without permission to order. Whichever is true I have no idea, but it is rather sad that given that there were still a fair few sacrificial Southern EMUs around that still could have donated many parts to get the 4-BIG back into traffic again, coupled with the quick sale to RVEL & Network Rail for major conversion then the hole case did seem rather odd - why go all the way to restore an entire unit, complete with matching buffet car, only to get shot of it pretty quickly afterwards? Whatever happened though its a shame to have seen that go, especially considering the effort made with it compared to ex Southern EMUs on other lines.

Thanks for info re the BIG Unit, yes it does seem strange they did not have that for long on the GCR, it was in very good condition when I went on it.

 

[Katada]

Thanks for info re the BIG Unit, yes it does seem strange they did not have that for long on the GCR, it was in very good condition when I went on it.

Why are they even considering blowing £1m on a bridge before even having proper security to prevent theft vandalism and damage

Have you got more info on the unit?

 

[fgwrich]

Why are they even considering blowing £1m on a bridge before even having proper security to prevent theft vandalism and damage

Have you got more info on the unit?

Sadly this was in 2009 - the driving trailers were sold on to EMR with one being scrapped and the other I think still up for sale but sat out alone in Kingsbury. Whilst the Buffet Car and Motor Brake were I gather both sold onto Network Rail and now both converted into NR test train rolling stock - so little to no chance of converting them back. Sad really when the CIG/BIGs were quite rateable and would have been nice to see a proper 4 car working again, yet there's still a few VEP cars around - which would have been good for spares and the two VOPs.

http://www.hondawanderer.com/7059_Woodthorpe_2009.htm




http://www.flickr.com/photos/26024754@N07/6026899085/
From what I gather it was brake rodding that was stolen - surely they could have made up some new rodding?

 

[Philip Elliott]

The buffet car was not sold to NR but is safe and sound.

 

[455driver]

From what I gather it was brake rodding that was stolen - surely they could have made up some new rodding?

You gather wrong, most of the wiring was hacked off the unit, coupled with a good offer from NR for the motor coach and the amount of effort and money to get the unit back to passenger carrying standards the units fate was sealed.

Yes it was fixable but manpower is always in short supply so the unit would probably have been parkied in a corner and slowly rusted away. :cry:

 

[Monty]

It's a shame as I always liked the GCR's 4-BIG, one of the few preserved EMUs that was actually looked after until it got attacked.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Shame about the GCR BIG, (Perhaps they could borrow the similar blue unit that is at Clapham Junction Yard and I think belongs to the Bluebell Railway.)

 

[Monty]

The VEP at Clapham Yard is starting to look a little ropey and could possibly do with a repaint. I'm not sure if the Bluebell still own it, I was chatting to a chap a year or so ago who is part of the group who look after it and he had mentioned that the plan was the Bluebell would transfer ownership of the unit as they have very little use for it anymore.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The VEP at Clapham Yard is starting to look a little ropey and could possibly do with a repaint. I'm not sure if the Bluebell still own it, I was chatting to a chap a year or so ago who is part of the group who look after it and he had mentioned that the plan was the Bluebell would transfer ownership of the unit as they have very little use for it anymore.

I often thought it was a little strange that the Bluebell bought the VEP in the first place. It does not really fit in with their operations. Hope it will find a new good home at the GCR or elsewhere. (Maybe a railtour firm like UKRailtours, or perhaps DPS or WCR could take it over and run some some mainline 3rd rail excursions with the VEP, rather like Hastings Diesels have done with their unit 1001. (Once they have sorted out the radio and insurance problems they had last year.)

 

[Monty]

The real problem with putting it back on the mainline would be installing CDL, as you can imagine a VEP has a lot of doors so it could be rather expensive.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The real problem with putting it back on the mainline would be installing CDL, as you can imagine a VEP has a lot of doors so it could be rather expensive.

Yes, true, I suppose they could lock most of the doors and just use 1 door at either end with bolts like they do on some of the MK 1 & MK 2 coaches that are used by the mainline charter steam and diesel hauled services.?

 

[Chris125]

I often thought it was a little strange that the Bluebell bought the VEP in the first place.

If I remember correctly 'Gordon' was effectively gifted to them for £1, and was initially to act as a visible presence at East Grinstead of the extension project. I believe a very favourable deal with Network Rail to provide the mainline connection was also involved, so it made complete sense at the time.

I think the mainline is probably her best long-term hope given how impractical such a unit is for heritage lines, though having some doors permanently shut/locked would surely be necessary.

Chris

 

[zn1]

why the vep is sitting idle is puzzling, dont think of it as a unit now..it can be used as normal hauled coaching stock, esp on lines the GC, NYMR, dart valley, even the bluebell the fact it has motors and couple of cabs is irrelevant now...it can be hauled by any diesel, steam with air braking (blasphemy blasphemy steam using air brakes and not vac). unless its going to be energised frequently, personally id lift the bogies get rid of the motors and use it purely as a permanentlu coupled 4 coach set...this is what the CIGS/BIGS VEPS/CEPS etc can be used for....the bluebell also had 3rd rail before it was closed down..the Vep has just as much authority to be there as the kettles, but thats my opinion, steam has its place, it was replaced by diesel and electric, and now the last generation of electric emu needs to be placed in status...personally a steam engine is a great piece of kit, but the time to get it operational for a service is a joke. i prefer to get in a clean diesel or leccy, turn it on, get a brake and go....

 

[Bedpan]

Although the branch from Haywards Heath to Horsted Keynes was electrified, running into the western side of Horsted Keynes station, the Bluebell itself (assuming "Bluebell" to mean the line from East Grinstead to Lewes) never had third rail.

 

[yorksrob]

The VEP and other EMU's need to come out on the mainline. Those that travel on these units do so by choice and are aware of the added "risk". A tour official in each carriage is enough to oversee things. We need to get over this preposterous hysteria regarding slam doors.

 

[Chris125]

why the vep is sitting idle is puzzling, dont think of it as a unit now..it can be used as normal hauled coaching stock, esp on lines the GC, NYMR, dart valley, even the bluebell the fact it has motors and couple of cabs is irrelevant now...it can be hauled by any diesel, steam with air braking (blasphemy blasphemy steam using air brakes and not vac).

I'd hardly say it's puzzling - there's never going to be much demand for EMUs with a high density seat and door layout, especially as almost all preserved lines have very limited siding space and resources to maintain rolling stock.

It doesn't help that they have a limited enthusiast following, are usually air-only, and can't be steam heated - even ETH can require modifications.

Chris

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The VEP and other EMU's need to come out on the mainline. Those that travel on these units do so by choice and are aware of the added "risk". A tour official in each carriage is enough to oversee things. We need to get over this preposterous hysteria regarding slam doors.

Yes I agree, with a little supervision etc this problem could easily be overcome, the over zealous health & safety brigade do take things too far sometimes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

why the vep is sitting idle is puzzling, dont think of it as a unit now..it can be used as normal hauled coaching stock, esp on lines the GC, NYMR, dart valley, even the bluebell the fact it has motors and couple of cabs is irrelevant now...it can be hauled by any diesel, steam with air braking (blasphemy blasphemy steam using air brakes and not vac). unless its going to be energised frequently, personally id lift the bogies get rid of the motors and use it purely as a permanentlu coupled 4 coach set...this is what the CIGS/BIGS VEPS/CEPS etc can be used for....the bluebell also had 3rd rail before it was closed down..the Vep has just as much authority to be there as the kettles, but thats my opinion, steam has its place, it was replaced by diesel and electric, and now the last generation of electric emu needs to be placed in status...personally a steam engine is a great piece of kit, but the time to get it operational for a service is a joke. i prefer to get in a clean diesel or leccy, turn it on, get a brake and go....

Yes, I agree, there is no reason why the VEP and other similar EMUs can not be diesel or even steam hauled too. In fact this did happen on the main lines and not so long ago. For example sometimes the Waterloo to Salisbury stopping service was formed of an EMU but diesel hauled, (although the WAT to Exeter services were formed of proper older style inter-city type stock, using MK1s or MK2s and with big diesel haulage. ) Before electrification, the EMUS were diesel hauled between Bournemouth & Weymouth too.

Also the old Clapham Jct to Kenny O, sometimes was formed of a diesel hauled EMU for a while. They seemed to use alsorts of stock for that service, I recall.

In times of flooding in the Fulwell Tunnel, I remember many years ago, diesels hauled EMUs to form a shuttle service on the Shepperton line. I am sure it no doubt happened elsewhere too in similar circumstances. (We could with that now infact as this present wet weather is causing similar Fulwell flooding problems again.)

 

[NSEFAN]

Yes I agree, with a little supervision etc this problem could easily be overcome, the over zealous health & safety brigade do take things too far sometimes

"Health and safety" is always about insurance and not about safety. All it takes is one careless enthusiast to get themselves injured and all legal hell breaks loose, so you can see why people like to cover their backs.

I also get the impression that the paranoia about slam doors was a largely political thing to speed up the withdrawal of the last Mk1 carriages from passenger service. The only reason they may be a greater risk to the public now is a lack of familiarity with how to use them (HSTs cause much confusion to new passengers!), but on a railtour for enthusiasts this aught not to be so much of a problem.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Exactly, I don't know how hard it would be to have (or the legality) of a safety briefing before the passengers board. I think the safety claims had veracity during the time they were in service, since some members of the public will always be irresponsible and reckless, as quite a few passengers found out...

But a train of enthusiasts should be mature enough not to play chicken on the open doors and wind up a jammy smear on the side of the 1440 to Victoria.

 

[yorksrob]

I know that railtours often have a code of conduct covering things such as not sticking your head out of the window etc. I wonder whether a similar such paragraph could be added regarding the doors.

 

[455driver]

For example sometimes the Waterloo to Salisbury stopping service was formed of an EMU but diesel hauled, (although the WAT to Exeter services were formed of proper older style inter-city type stock, using MK1s or MK2s and with big diesel haulage. ) Before electrification, the EMUS were diesel hauled between Bournemouth & Weymouth too.

Also the old Clapham Jct to Kenny O, sometimes was formed of a diesel hauled EMU for a while. They seemed to use alsorts of stock for that service, I recall.

I would say that isn nearly every case it would be 4TC stock used on these rather than EMUs.

In times of flooding in the Fulwell Tunnel, I remember many years ago, diesels hauled EMUs to form a shuttle service on the Shepperton line. I am sure it no doubt happened elsewhere too in similar circumstances. (We could with that now infact as this present wet weather is causing similar Fulwell flooding problems again.)

This is aboput the only example you have listed where an EMU would routinely be hauled by a diesel.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I know that railtours often have a code of conduct covering things such as not sticking your head out of the window etc. I wonder whether a similar such paragraph could be added regarding the doors.

Yes that would be sensible.

 

[daddsie71b]

We had a CIG with shoe gear lifted and 73109 working Weymouth Quay in 1994 for the D day commemorations. The EDL was named Force O Weymouth with the battle of britain plates covered up, the only time a mainline loco has ever carried two sets of different names plates at the same time.

 

[BingBong50]

Is "Gordon The 4 VEP" still serviceable to run off its own motors / 3rd rail?

 

[455driver]

Is "Gordon The 4 VEP" still serviceable to run off its own motors / 3rd rail?

Yes it can run on the juice and has done around Clapham yard a couple of times when people 'forgot' it wasnt supposed to move under its own power!

 

[yorksrob]

Well, if London Underground can run wooden bodied slam door trains on the Met, there‘s simply no good reason why the VEP can‘t do a railtour on the Southern.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Well, if London Underground can run wooden bodied slam door trains on the Met, there‘s simply no good reason why the VEP can‘t do a railtour on the Southern.

I'd agree with that, just lock all doors apart from those at the ends to keep the H&S Happy.