3tph on North Downs Line

[DelW]

This post is rather inaccurate. There are several different permutations for the route and I can guarantee that the data currently in the public domain does not resemble the timetable which is currently being finalised.

I'm inferring that you probably have inside information but can't post it on here for obvious reasons.

What does surprise me, if as you say the current timings are completely spurious, is that they're on GWR's own journey planner. Real world passengers who don't read forums like this, will be using that to plan travel in late May or June - particularly those planning holiday trips via Gatwick. Incorrectly shown long gaps at smaller stations may send them off to book taxis or airport parking instead.

 

[Barn]

I'm inferring that you probably have inside information but can't post it on here for obvious reasons.

What does surprise me, if as you say the current timings are completely spurious, is that they're on GWR's own journey planner. Real world passengers who don't read forums like this, will be using that to plan travel in late May or June - particularly those planning holiday trips via Gatwick. Incorrectly shown long gaps at smaller stations may send them off to book taxis or airport parking instead.

Yes, the rail industry has really let itself down this time. How does GWR expect people to find out about any changes? Hopefully they will at least send warning emails. I can envisage lots of upset holidaymakers at stations, many of which have a poor frequency meaning that a missed train could easily mean a missed flight.

 

[JonathanH]

To be fair, if you look up times on the GWR journey planner 'check your journey' you do find that it warns you that the timetable is wrong.

Service Update
Timetable updates for your journey: At present, we cannot confirm whether this service will run and some additional service may be missing from the journey planner. We would advise that you follow this link to sign up for information about any potential changes to your service.

However there is no such warning if you go to purchase a ticket.

Interestingly, for the first week of the timetable buses replace trains early / late between Guildford and Redhill and the message on the National Rail website uses the existing timings - e.g. 0434 / 2234 / 2334 from Reading and 0556 / 2318 from Gatwick but perhaps that is just in the absence of anything actually being known about the timetable.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=2018/05/23&TOC=GW

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The GWR journey planner feeds directly off the Network Rail system and as-such, they have no direct control over it. (Same as the journey planners on all TOCs websites.)

 

[infobleep]

Yes, this is correct. It will be 2tph but not the same timetable as the current version due to the Thameslink recast.

So does this mean GRW have a number of staff sitting spare? Can they be redeployed at all, given they are of no use on the NDL? I guess it depends where the staff live.

 

[infobleep]

To be fair, if you look up times on the GWR journey planner 'check your journey' you do find that it warns you that the timetable is wrong.



However there is no such warning if you go to purchase a ticket.

Interestingly, for the first week of the timetable buses replace trains early / late between Guildford and Redhill and the message on the National Rail website uses the existing timings - e.g. 0434 / 2234 / 2334 from Reading and 0556 / 2318 from Gatwick but perhaps that is just in the absence of anything actually being known about the timetable.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=2018/05/23&TOC=GW

Interestingly it currently says the info isn't final but when click through the link, it says they planned to finalise the 20th May timetables by 6th April. If you click further down it says 7th April for the NDL.

However it currently seems as if the info still isn't in there fully. I can see trains that may not run and large gaps. After the 17:53 Reading service leaves then the next one is the 19:20.

Perhaps no one wants to travel from Reading to Gatwick or any station in between between 18:00 and 19:00. There isn't even a Redhill train or at least nothing shows up that provides a connection to Gatwick Airport

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I believe the upload may be coming through in the next couple of days. Watch this space. Also bear in mind there are a few individual schedules still under discussion so the complete finalised picture may take a while to fully coalesce.

 

[infobleep]

I believe the upload may be coming through in the next couple of days. Watch this space. Also bear in mind there are a few individual schedules still under discussion so the complete finalised picture may take a while to fully coalesce.

Whoever updates National Rail Enquires might want to say this precise wording as is more honest and helpful than the current wording when I last checked.

 

[JonathanH]

A new timetable has appeared on Realtimetrains which is much closer to the current to the current timetable than what was shown before - e.g. from Reading an xx04 stopper and xx32 semi-fast with a few changes at the eastern end to fit with other movements at Redhill.

There are still some trains missing but basically looks like this is the retained pattern.

Is 3tph dead for the foreseeable future?

 

[Minstral25]

For Reigate this has not merged well with the new GTR timetable - it seems GWR trains are running just 4 minutes ahead of the Victoria service meaning it no longer has any opportunity for connection for London Bound rail users effectively reducing the service in the morning peak hours. The removal of the first 2 early morning services has also meant first train is much later than before. (No 05:34 from Reigate - first train now 06:06 to Victoria)

 

[JonathanH]

For Reigate this has not merged well with the new GTR timetable - it seems GWR trains are running just 4 minutes ahead of the Victoria service meaning it no longer has any opportunity for connection for London Bound rail users effectively reducing the service in the morning peak hours. The removal of the first 2 early morning services has also meant first train is much later than before. (No 05:34 from Reigate - first train now 06:06 to Victoria)

Yes, it does leave some big gaps at key times in the morning peak from Reigate to Redhill. Trains at 05:35 and 06:32 are now shown. I imagine that there will be an 07:32 as well, just creeping through ahead of the 07:36 to Victoria. However, there will now be a gap in trains to Redhill from Reigate between 07:36 and 08:04 at a key time for connections. It means that the journey times from Reigate to London Bridge are:

0535 for 0549 at Redhill (arr 0619) - 44 minutes
0606 for 0638 at East Croydon (arr 0653) - 47 minutes
0632 for 0639 at Redhill (maybe) (arr 0719) - 47 minutes
0636 for 0710 at East Croydon (arr 0723) - 47 minutes
0706 for 0738 at East Croydon (arr 0753) - 47 minutes
0720 for 0729 at Redhill (arr 0759) - 39 minutes
0732 for 0739 at Redhill (maybe) (arr 0819) - 47 minutes
0736 for 0808 at East Croydon (arr 0823) - 47 minutes
0804 for 0838 at East Croydon (arr 0853) - 49 minutes
0824 for 0839 at Redhill (arr 0919) - 55 minutes

Almost none connect into the Peterborough service to London Bridge which offers the best time (30 minutes) from Redhill.

On the plus side for the people who seem to have a problem with it. the level crossing barriers won't come down in Reigate any more than they currently do.

One point to note about the possibility of Reigate platform 3 is that even if it was built you would imagine that the trains from it will be the slow so which currently takes 40 minutes from Redhill. On the face of it, a 45 minute journey time from Reigate to London Bridge on a slow train isn't a much better outcome either.

 

[infobleep]

After the 7 33 Gatwick Airport to Reading train levees the next one is currently the 9.30. Clearly something is up.

They are also showing 10:30 and 11:00 services. If it's not going half hourly then something isn't right.

Still they have removed the note saying when the timetables will be correct, which when I checked on Monday was for a date in the past! In addition to that they have also removed the notice about the timetables not being correct.....
Still it's mot as if they aren not correct is it.....?

 

[JonathanH]

After the 7 33 Gatwick Airport to Reading train levees the next one is currently the 9.30. Clearly something is up.

They are also showing 10:30 and 11:00 services. If it's not going half hourly then something isn't right.

Still they have removed the note saying when the timetables will be correct, which when I checked on Monday was for a date in the past! In addition to that they have also removed the notice about the timetables not being correct.....
Still it's mot as if they aren not correct is it.....?

NRE isn't updated yet. This is the information currently feeding into Realtimetrains.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/29/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

I would expect there to be a train from Gatwick at 9am - there is an arrival just before then at Gatwick, albeit a fudge of the current stopping train and the next available path from Redhill to Gatwick.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C42978/2018/05/29/advanced

 

[infobleep]

I thought real train times and National Rail Enquiries got updated at the same time as they used the same timetable feed. Obviously not.

Still at least passengers can now think the times are correct in National Rail Enquiries when they are not. After all it's the thought that counts!

 

[infobleep]

Glad to see some common sense occurring. I had visions of the trains deserting 30 minutes last the hour when their isn't a good connection on the Brighton mainline as the Peterbrough service doesn't run at that point.

By using on the hour it means passengers have a better connection to the service from coming from the south, as they can board the Peterborough bound service.

 

[infobleep]

I notice that on a midday train, 12.32, the train will be leaving Reading 2 minutes earlier than now; arriving into Guildford 3 minutes later than now and departing Guildford 3 minute later than now. They will be arriving into Gatwick 3 minutes later than now.

The train won't be stopping at any additional stations either. Maybe this additional 5 minute padding to Guildford will help with train punctually, although I'm surprised they didn't time trains to start earlier previously, as that surely wouldn't impact on anything. It would only increase times by 2 minutes, assuming trains couldn't depart 3 minutes later but 2 minutes might make a difference.

 

[JonathanH]

There appears to be an interesting arrangment on trains from Guildford to Reading with a 0743 and an 0746 service which both call at all stations from Ash to Wokingham. It strikes me that this can't be the only way to path these trains so perhaps it is subject to further change or alternatively it is a way of ensuring sufficient capacity for arrivals at Reading around 0830 where the alternative of running longer trains doesn't exist. The platform at Guildford doesn't appear to be needed for a while so I don't know why the stopper doesn't dwell at Guildford for a bit longer after it is overtaken by the train from Gatwick which has to get to Reading in time to head back at 0832.

There appears to be a missing train in the gap shown at Guildford between 0746 and 0843 from Redhill which presumably leaves Redhill around 0730 (given the unbalanced arrival at Redhill at 0724).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...9/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

 

[infobleep]

There also seems to be a gap in the direction to Guildford to Gatwick Airport. Currently there is a 7.10 but their doesn't appear to be a 7.13 equivalent in the new timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

There also seems to be a gap in the direction to Guildford to Gatwick Airport. Currently there is a 7.10 but their doesn't appear to be a 7.13 equivalent in the new timetable.

I would have thought the issue is coping with the movements at Redhill on that one. It seems very tight between 0724 when the Reading train arrives at Redhill and about 0745.

 

[infobleep]

I would have thought the issue is coping with the movements at Redhill on that one. It seems very tight between 0724 when the Reading train arrives at Redhill and about 0745.

That will be a shame as it will slow down journey to during the morning peak. For example if one has an appointment n Brighton nut near near the station, then the 7.10 was a useful service from Guildford.

Under the new timetable passengers would need to get the 6.42. That's a 28 minute increase in journey time. I don't remember the 7.10 being a quiet train.

The 6.42 doesn't even go to Gatwick Airport so passengers have to change. Needless to say the next train isn't until 7.34, assuming it's on time. That stops at every station so gets you into Gatwick Airport at 7.45. The next train to Brighton is the 7.58. There is a 7.50 to Eastbourne but whether that's officially allow I don't know and I wouldn't know if any trains slip Gatwick Airport at that time of the morning.

The 8am gest into Brighton at 8.23

Currently by getting the 7.10 one gets into Brighton at 8.38 officially but if trains are on time it can be possible to get 7.54 which gets on in at 8.23. Usually trains are late too which helps.

So that's definitely a loser. The main losser though is no direct train to Gatwick Airport

 

[JonathanH]

I can't see the 0634 from Reading / 0710 from Guildford to Gatwick Airport being cancelled. It just looks like it is one of what Wilts Wanderer described as one of the "individual schedules still under discussion" and therefore the times might be perturbed slightly. Something needs to get to Gatwick by 0800 to form the next train back.

 

[infobleep]

I can't see the 0634 from Reading / 0710 from Guildford to Gatwick Airport being cancelled. It just looks like it is one of what Wilts Wanderer described as one of the "individual schedules still under discussion" and therefore the times might be perturbed slightly. Something needs to get to Gatwick by 0800 to form the next train back.

I'm sure you right. I wonder what is left to discuss about it.

Incidentally given Network Rail are rather stretched with getting train times in, I'm surprised some were put up which were wrong and have had to be removed.

Is it the case of someone thinking they were ok to put up. When one is under pressure mistakes can occur. I know from personal experience in the past.

I don't know how the info is entered. Does someone from a TOC send a file of train times, which someone at Network Rail can import into the system? Maybe reviewing them on entry to check for any errors or problems in relation to other trains, which my mot have been spotted by the TOC.

Whatever they do I find it interesting.

 

[FenMan]

Well, the new timetable no longer carries any health warnings on NRE. So it's now fair to ask what is going on with the last departure from Gatwick Airport. From Sunday to Friday this calls at North Camp and Blackwater, but both stations are bypassed on Saturday nights. If this change is real, as opposed to being duff data, then a letter of complaint will be winging its way to GWR. This service has stopped at both stations on Saturday nights for many years and whilst it's hardly the busiest service a fair number of people rely upon it.

 

[DelW]

I can't see the 0634 from Reading / 0710 from Guildford to Gatwick Airport being cancelled. It just looks like it is one of what Wilts Wanderer described as one of the "individual schedules still under discussion" and therefore the times might be perturbed slightly. Something needs to get to Gatwick by 0800 to form the next train back.

That has now appeared, except retimed 2 minutes earlier. Most of the other services which were missing recently have also reappeared with only minor changes, with a Reading off-peak departure pattern of xx.04 and xx.32.

 

[JonathanH]

That has now appeared, except retimed 2 minutes earlier. Most of the other services which were missing recently have also reappeared with only minor changes, with a Reading off-peak departure pattern of xx.04 and xx.32.

The weekday timetable now appears to be there except that the 0820 Reading to Redhill should terminate at Guildford for the 0910 to Reading.

Odd to see that the Saturday timetable is based on the 3tph timetable (with the long wait at Guildford for the stopper and the stopper / semi-fast on the opposite sides of the hour to the existing timetable) even though it was never part of the plans for 3tph on Saturday.

 

[zoneking]

The weekday timetable, as it has been updated for 21 May, sees a drastic reduction in services for places such as Gomshall. Instead of 3 trains to Guildford/Reading before 9AM, there is only one, at 07.58. Is GWR able to make such a drastic change without prior consultation?

 

[JonathanH]

The weekday timetable, as it has been updated for 21 May, sees a drastic reduction in services for places such as Gomshall. Instead of 3 trains to Guildford/Reading before 9AM, there is only one, at 07.58. Is GWR able to make such a drastic change without prior consultation?

Arguably not according to the Service Level Committment (although three trains call at Gomshall before 10am).
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/617725/great-western-2015-commitments.zip

However, I suspect that the reason the 0630 Redhill to Reading can't stop at local stations is because it needs to clear platform 8 at Guildford (0703 - 0704) before the 0632 Reading to Gatwick (0706 - 0708) needs that platform. It can't leave Reigate before 0640 because of a Southern train. It can't run to Reading later because there is a 60mph path for a Network Rail MPV at 0710 (presumably only used in the Autumn but reserved all year round). Consequently, they seem to have made the decision that it won't stop at the local stations between Reigate and Guildford.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Realtime Trains shows 2tph still Mon-Sat

 

[JonathanH]

Realtime Trains shows 2tph still Mon-Sat

Yes, 3tph on weekdays didn't work so they restored something close to the existing timetable. Saturday was always 2tph but with seemingly unnecessary provision (long dwells in the stopper) for 3tph. Sunday is 2tph as well now of course with a different timetable pattern again.

 

[higthomas]

So I assume 3tph is a long long way off then?