3tph on North Downs Line

[Deepgreen]

I thought first class was only at one end of the train when it's in use. So I sit at the end without the first class noticed.

I do find it odd that Betchworth gets first class services some of the time and other times it doesn't. However places like Byfleet and Newhaw get first class during the weekend peaks but otherwise doesn't.

Whether these stations offer first class tickets is another matter.

There's a lot to get through here - the class 166s have had their first class declassified at one end of each unit (and rightly so). HOWEVER, the appallingly bad signage means that it is usually very hard to tell (even as a seasoned rail employee of 37 years, let alone as a normal passenger!) which end is still actually designated as first class.

I can't remember the last time I travelled on a 166 which had appropriate signage for first class - most now have no window stickers, no anti-macassars and no working vestibule doors. Several units also have their external labelling contradicting any remaining internal labelling. Several, for example, have the pencil-thin silver cantrail stripe (which must surely be utterly useless to anyone not in the rail industry) at both ends of the unit, including 166205 - the supposed 'flagship' (in that it has been refurbished internally as well) of the fleet!

FGW (briefly) got it nearly right when their plain blue livery (post-dynamic lines) included a broad yellow stripe and a very large '1' on the body-side, but that's now been superseded by the current useless regime. The irony is that a yellow stripe would (IMO) suit the green livery very well - see BR (SR) in the 1960s.

No trains which call at Betchworth are designated as having first class, which has been the case since October 2015 (not that all the crews seem to know this and certainly 99% of passengers don't!), except for a couple of late-night workings which serve Gatwick.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I have never known such a shambolic state of affairs, both in terms of informing passengers about the declassification (guards - why not announce this instead of just repeating the recording messages??!!), and from the point of view of the rolling stock labelling. For a business that has just made such a huge issue of its re-branding, it's beyond belief. Even Southern has not descended to this level!

I have written to Mark Hopwood (GWR MD) to demand an explanation. It makes me angry to see the railway descend to this level, especially when GWR have such a high profile marketing campaign where they claim more or less to be rebuilding the west of England, when actually the vast majority of the funding is from Network Rail! A case for the Advertising Standards Authority in my view, and I may yet take it to them.

Time for a lie down.

 

[infobleep]

There's a lot to get through here - the class 166s have had their first class declassified at one end of each unit (and rightly so). HOWEVER, the appallingly bad signage means that it is usually very hard to tell (even as a seasoned rail employee of 37 years, let alone as a normal passenger!) which end is still actually designated as first class.

I can't remember the last time I travelled on a 166 which had appropriate signage for first class - most now have no window stickers, no anti-macassars and no working vestibule doors. Several units also have their external labelling contradicting any remaining internal labelling. Several, for example, have the pencil-thin silver cantrail stripe (which must surely be utterly useless to anyone not in the rail industry) at both ends of the unit, including 166205 - the supposed 'flagship' (in that it has been refurbished internally as well) of the fleet!

FGW (briefly) got it nearly right when their plain blue livery (post-dynamic lines) included a broad yellow stripe and a very large '1' on the body-side, but that's now been superseded by the current useless regime. The irony is that a yellow stripe would (IMO) suit the green livery very well - see BR (SR) in the 1960s.

No trains which call at Betchworth are designated as having first class, which has been the case since October 2015 (not that all the crews seem to know this and certainly 99% of passengers don't!), except for a couple of late-night workings which serve Gatwick.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I have never known such a shambolic state of affairs, both in terms of informing passengers about the declassification (guards - why not announce this instead of just repeating the recording messages??!!), and from the point of view of the rolling stock labelling. For a business that has just made such a huge issue of its re-branding, it's beyond belief. Even Southern has not descended to this level!

I have written to Mark Hopwood (GWR MD) to demand an explanation. It makes me angry to see the railway descend to this level, especially when GWR have such a high profile marketing campaign where they claim more or less to be rebuilding the west of England, when actually the vast majority of the funding is from Network Rail! A case for the Advertising Standards Authority in my view, and I may yet take it to them.

Time for a lie down.

I thought Betchworth had first class on a Sunday as all trains go to Gatwick Airport. I've not checked the actual timetable to see if Sunday services have first class though.

If there's nothing to say first class then I'll sit in it. Whether I've actually sat in first class I know not but do make an effort to not to.

 

[Deepgreen]

I thought Betchworth had first class on a Sunday as all trains go to Gatwick Airport. I've not checked the actual timetable to see if Sunday services have first class though.

The timetable does indicate first class, but that's an anomaly that FGW/GWR didn't think through when they declassified the stoppers! Given the increasing chance of 165s being used (let alone the 166s having such atrocious signage) I don't think any guard would stand much chance of enforcing anything to do with first class!

 

[Barn]

I have now received an answer from Network Rail:

Have applications been made by the franchisee to Network Rail?

In direct answer to your question, the franchisee did make a request for the inclusion of these services as part of the bid process for the May 2017 permanent timetable.

Have these applications been approved?

Again in direct answer to your question, the application for these service was not approved by Network Rail.

The following extract from a letter written by our Capacity Planning team sets out our reasons for not approving the application:

“…the South East & High Speed 1 TCRAG [Timetable Change Risk Assessment Group] has reviewed the Access Proposal and concluded that the level of risk imported through running additional trains between Reading and Gatwick Airport along the specified route is high, to the extent that performance and safety would be compromised. There are specific concerns for the South East Route around increase of trains over level crossings: at Reigate, which is a very busy crossing in terms of vehicle usage and busy in terms of pedestrian usage, on a road that cuts through the middle of Reigate, and provides access to the M25 and M23; and at Betchworth, where the road provides access from the M25 towards Dorking and Reigate.

Given the recommendations from TCRAG, specifically regarding traffic volumes over level crossings, Network Rail (NR) is unable to offer the requested service quantum between Reading and Gatwick Airport at this time. This is in accordance with Network Code Part D, Section 4.6.1, which stipulates that timetable decisions must be consistent with the objective of ensuring the ‘safe carriage of passengers and goods’ on the Network.”

In everyday terms increasing the number of services going across busy level crossings would create an unacceptable level of risk to the rail network.

It may also be useful to know GWR has already sought further permission from us for the service for the December 2017 Timetable and that this application is currently under consideration.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I have now received an answer from Network Rail:

What a load of bunkum. Never had such tosh in BR days, Betchworth could be replaced by a bridge as for the rest of the crossings they're lightly used.

The main problem is the length of the signal sections, they're too long to allow any decent train service which caters for both local & fast services to operate without confliction.

Also get used to the idea of 165s being used on the NDL, the 166s are off to the Bristol area.

 

[30907]

...as for the rest of the crossings they're lightly used.

Meaning Reigate, which is the only one NR refer to?

Looks like a rethink of the proposal will be needed for the short term as far as the peaks are concerned. Running the extra Gatwick nonstop Wokingham-Guildford then picking up the intermediate stops to Redhill might work tolerably well in the peaks.

Off-Peak I would have thought the lower road traffic levels would allow a 2-hourly Redhill-Guildford all stations, as there was a few years back, so 2.5tph in all.

 

[Bald Rick]

What a load of bunkum. Never had such tosh in BR days,

Level Crossings weren't subject to detailed risk assessments in BR days.

Would you be happy to sign the bit of paper confirming that the additional risk that the extra trains import to the railway operation is acceptable without assessing any mitigation and implementing it if necessary? In the certain knowledge that in the event of any fatality at a level crossing on that route (and not just at those two crossings), it would be you who is hauled off to the nick to explain yourself?

As that is what would happen.

 

[The Ham]

I have now received an answer from Network Rail:

.....
It may also be useful to know GWR has already sought further permission from us for the service for the December 2017 Timetable and that this application is currently under consideration.

One question I have is that given NR have said no to the May timetable change what could be the difference so as to make them change their mind for the December timetable change?

The level crossings aren't going to disappear and the timetable is likely to be fairly fixed as to when trains can run.

Although I understand that NR have to be aware of health and safety, they also have to consider that if they say no to more trains then there will be pressure for them to allow longer trains. The problem with that, for them, is that they will have to find platform lengthening and/or ASDO.

Alternatively there could be political pressure along the lines of, you've known for some time that 3tph was an aspersion to increase service frequencies on this line why wasn't this raised before this request was made so that a way forward could have been investigated, possibly with sources of funding investigated.

 

[Bald Rick]

.

Alternatively there could be political pressure along the lines of, you've known for some time that 3tph was an aspersion to increase service frequencies on this line why wasn't this raised before this request was made so that a way forward could have been investigated, possibly with sources of funding investigated.

There's only two sources of funding for this sort of thing - the fare payer (which would come via the TOC) and the taxpayer (national or local government). NR does not have its own money for such works.

Perhaps it has been raised, and perhaps none of the above want to pay?

 

[The Ham]

There's only two sources of funding for this sort of thing - the fare payer (which would come via the TOC) and the taxpayer (national or local government). NR does not have its own money for such works.

Perhaps it has been raised, and perhaps none of the above want to pay?

Which is why I was asking why didn't NR raise it earlier, given they don't have their own money it could have been that there could have been an agreement with the TOC, local government and/or national government to provide funding.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Meaning Reigate, which is the only one NR refer to?

Looks like a rethink of the proposal will be needed for the short term as far as the peaks are concerned. Running the extra Gatwick nonstop Wokingham-Guildford then picking up the intermediate stops to Redhill might work tolerably well in the peaks.

Off-Peak I would have thought the lower road traffic levels would allow a 2-hourly Redhill-Guildford all stations, as there was a few years back, so 2.5tph in all.

You make it hourly or don't bother, GWR have been very cunning in devising the current timetable to make the local service between Guildford & Redhill as unusable as possible by making it skip stop and by making the station calls at Chilworth,Gomshall,Dorking West and Betchworth at times of day when they know that the patronage is going to be low and so they can cut the service back to zero outside peak periods.

You can't go from one station to the next/neighbouring one, outside peak because it won't stop there, so you have to go beyond, run over to the opposite platform to come back if you did want to. The only option is to use a bus or walk and some of those are long!

As I've said the GWR train planners are devious, conniving & deceitful and the only thing they care about is running fast services to/from Gatwick, they'd do away with the local service altogether if they could get away with it.

Transfer it back to the SWT franchise, it cuts down on the number of TOC on TOC delays and interfaces, keep GWR where they belong on their own patch.

 

[Tirov]

Having just read an article about 319's being fitted with diesel engines the surely they would be the right class to run Reading Wokingham 3rd rail, Wokingham to Ash Diesel, the 3rd rail to Guildford/Shalford Junction, diesel to Reigate and then 3rd rail to Gatwick and reverse of course!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Having just read an article about 319's being fitted with diesel engines the surely they would be the right class to run Reading Wokingham 3rd rail, Wokingham to Ash Diesel, the 3rd rail to Guildford/Shalford Junction, diesel to Reigate and then 3rd rail to Gatwick and reverse of course!

You're thinking far too logically and sensibly.

Put a 442 & 67+DVT on there, that'll sort it.

 

[JonathanH]

You make it hourly or don't bother, GWR have been very cunning in devising the current timetable to make the local service between Guildford & Redhill as unusable as possible by making it skip stop and by making the station calls at Chilworth,Gomshall,Dorking West and Betchworth at times of day when they know that the patronage is going to be low and so they can cut the service back to zero outside peak periods.

You can't go from one station to the next/neighbouring one, outside peak because it won't stop there, so you have to go beyond, run over to the opposite platform to come back if you did want to. The only option is to use a bus or walk and some of those are long!

As I've said the GWR train planners are devious, conniving & deceitful and the only thing they care about is running fast services to/from Gatwick, they'd do away with the local service altogether if they could get away with it.

Transfer it back to the SWT franchise, it cuts down on the number of TOC on TOC delays and interfaces, keep GWR where they belong on their own patch.

With all due respect Gatwick is where the passengers are and the train planners have that in mind in what they are trying to do. Before the skip stop timetable was introduced, the previous timetable had stopping trains from Reading arriving at Redhill only a few minutes ahead of the Gatwick service.

The skip stop is fine - the only journey for which it causes any issue is Chilworth or Gomshall to Betchworth. Dorking West is within walking distance of Dorking Deepdene (although I acknowledge that Deepdene has awkward access). Off peak patronage would be limited at the small stations between Guildford and Redhill whatever the timetable.

South West Trains would not have done better - fares would be much higher (compare those on the Ascot to Guildford line with those on the North Downs line). Running the service from the Reading end makes loads of sense it terms of the greatest spread of running times to serve Gatwick. I can't see anything which the operator of the South Western division franchise would be able to do better about the timetable or operations. It is a fantasy to imagine that there could be through trains to Waterloo from either side of Guildford.

As for TOC on TOC delays, some of them occur at the Redhill end of things as well. The paths through Guildford are no less critical than those between Redhill and Gatwick.

It is a massive shame that there won't be an increase in the frequency of services on the line as I think it would stimulate demand. The current timetable is probably about as good as it can get with the amount of resources available.

 

[30907]

You make it hourly or don't bother, GWR have been very cunning in devising the current timetable to make the local service between Guildford & Redhill as unusable as possible by making it skip stop and by making the station calls at Chilworth,Gomshall,Dorking West and Betchworth at times of day when they know that the patronage is going to be low and so they can cut the service back to zero outside peak periods.

1. When did those stations last have an hourly off-peak service?
2. Are you saying that making the 2-hourly station calls on the alternate hour would make a significant difference to patronage?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It used to be an hourly stopping service between Guildford & Redhill all day and then political dogma interfered with it and it was transferred from the SWD to WR and they replaced the old Tadpole units with the awful 3-WR or 3 - Wreck, stinkbomb DMMU units as they were colloquially known and that sent what usage there was through the floor.

Unless they re-jig the timetable so that the fast overtakes the slow at Guildford and the stopper then follows behind it's a futile project, unless they're prepared to go hourly throughout the day to stimulate demand, then forget it.

I've abandoned the line, the service is poor, unreliable, frequently late, often misses out numerous stops to make up time, why would I want to use it?

If I want to catch a GWR service to Bristol/Wales or WoE, I got to Waterloo, use the tube and go to Paddington, at least I know that I'll get a seat and I'll get my train which is more than what can be said of using GWR's own service to Reading.

If they want people to use it, then they have to provide a decent service to the local stations, not just cater for Reading - Gatwick - Reading.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

With all due respect Gatwick is where the passengers are and the train planners have that in mind in what they are trying to do. Before the skip stop timetable was introduced, the previous timetable had stopping trains from Reading arriving at Redhill only a few minutes ahead of the Gatwick service.

The skip stop is fine - the only journey for which it causes any issue is Chilworth or Gomshall to Betchworth. Dorking West is within walking distance of Dorking Deepdene (although I acknowledge that Deepdene has awkward access). Off peak patronage would be limited at the small stations between Guildford and Redhill whatever the timetable.

South West Trains would not have done better - fares would be much higher (compare those on the Ascot to Guildford line with those on the North Downs line). Running the service from the Reading end makes loads of sense it terms of the greatest spread of running times to serve Gatwick. I can't see anything which the operator of the South Western division franchise would be able to do better about the timetable or operations. It is a fantasy to imagine that there could be through trains to Waterloo from either side of Guildford.

As for TOC on TOC delays, some of them occur at the Redhill end of things as well. The paths through Guildford are no less critical than those between Redhill and Gatwick.

It is a massive shame that there won't be an increase in the frequency of services on the line as I think it would stimulate demand. The current timetable is probably about as good as it can get with the amount of resources available.

So if anyone wants to go shopping in Dorking, where's the nearest station to the town centre? Dorking West or Dorking Town as it should be correctly known as it's only about 6 or 7 mins walk away from it.

More renaming deviousness by FGW/GWR to ensure that they only have to serve one stop, Deepdene which serves nothing apart from the A24 and the now very non mainline Dorking (North) station if you have the stamina for the stairs & ramps a pointless station now there's no mainline service at all to anything other than Horsham, that's if SN bother to run and it stops mid evening too.

There could easily be through trains to/from London & other destinations across the North Downs, there used to a boat train and IC services, freight, postal all sorts, just no one has the balls to do it.

If they put in the necessary signalling sections to reduce the section lengths from the stupidly long ones that BR introduced during rationalisation in the late 70s & early 80s, then it might work, but until they upgrade the line properly and stop poncing around and get on with it then don't bother even considering doing 3tph.

 

[infobleep]

With all due respect Gatwick is where the passengers are and the train planners have that in mind in what they are trying to do. Before the skip stop timetable was introduced, the previous timetable had stopping trains from Reading arriving at Redhill only a few minutes ahead of the Gatwick service.

The skip stop is fine - the only journey for which it causes any issue is Chilworth or Gomshall to Betchworth. Dorking West is within walking distance of Dorking Deepdene (although I acknowledge that Deepdene has awkward access). Off peak patronage would be limited at the small stations between Guildford and Redhill whatever the timetable.

South West Trains would not have done better - fares would be much higher (compare those on the Ascot to Guildford line with those on the North Downs line). Running the service from the Reading end makes loads of sense it terms of the greatest spread of running times to serve Gatwick. I can't see anything which the operator of the South Western division franchise would be able to do better about the timetable or operations. It is a fantasy to imagine that there could be through trains to Waterloo from either side of Guildford.

As for TOC on TOC delays, some of them occur at the Redhill end of things as well. The paths through Guildford are no less critical than those between Redhill and Gatwick.

It is a massive shame that there won't be an increase in the frequency of services on the line as I think it would stimulate demand. The current timetable is probably about as good as it can get with the amount of resources available.

At Deepdene they tell passengers there is step free access at Dorking West. However I don't think they tell them how poor the level of service is at Dorking West in comparison.

 

[JonathanH]

What?

Operation of the line passed from the SR to WR about 35 to 40 years ago because somewhere, someone in a BR marketing department realised that more people would use the line if the trains went to Gatwick rather than Tonbridge. They also realised that the best use of capacity was to serve the principal stations on the line. Presumably, very few people used it in those days.

Regardless of the virtues and merits of Tadpole units, Hampshire units, class 119s or 117s, the stock was replaced with brand new rolling stock in the early 1990s under the auspices of Network South East. The units used between 1980 and 1993 have absolutely nothing to do with the current fortunes of the line. As it is, I suspect that most passengers actually preferred the WR units to the suburban layout of the southern units (although I acknowledge that Tadpole units had carriages from dispanded Hastings units which some people could possibly have preferred).

The timetable changes brought in with the Turbos in the early 1990s meant that Blackwater got two trains an hour. The current timetable means that there are two trains an hour from Reading to Redhill. Skip stopping is the only way to allow the stopper to make the journey from Reading to Redhill and back in three hours and demand is significantly more on the western side of Guildford than the eastern side.

The changes at Gatwick to move the Gatwick Express to the fast line side of the station have improved reliability of the Reading to Gatwick line. I suspect that South West Trains at the Reading end cause as many delays to the tightly timed North Downs Line services as vice versa.

 

[JonathanH]

If they put in the necessary signalling sections to reduce the section lengths from the stupidly long ones that BR introduced during rationalisation in the late 70s & early 80s, then it might work, but until they upgrade the line properly and stop poncing around and get on with it then don't bother even considering doing 3tph.

Signalling is a point I agree with you on but I suspect that there is some path in which they can run 3tph. Nevertheless, they should investigate an improvement to the signalling before anyone gets too ambitious with electrification.

 

[Barn]

Interestingly, even though the plan was rejected due to level crossings, there is no sign that the lack of the extra Redhill platform (thus far) either prevented the application or caused the refusal.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Signalling is a point I agree with you on but I suspect that there is some path in which they can run 3tph. Nevertheless, they should investigate an improvement to the signalling before anyone gets too ambitious with electrification.

You can't do one without the other, as the signalling hasn't been immunised against interference, so if you do either you'll need immunisation either for immediate use or future use.

 

[DelW]

Regardless of the virtues and merits of Tadpole units, Hampshire units, class 119s or 117s, the stock was replaced with brand new rolling stock in the early 1990s under the auspices of Network South East. The units used between 1980 and 1993 have absolutely nothing to do with the current fortunes of the line. As it is, I suspect that most passengers actually preferred the WR units to the suburban layout of the southern units (although I acknowledge that Tadpole units had carriages from dispanded Hastings units which some people could possibly have preferred).

Let's face it, the Tadpoles were pretty dreadful from a passenger's point of view, they were just all that BR had to keep the line going at the end of steam. No matter how packed the one-and-a-half ex Hastings coaches were, I never saw a guard unlock the (non-corridor) compartments in the third coach. Since the narrow coaches were 2+2 seating, I suspect there were only about 100 seats on a three-coach set.

Looking at the full trains now leaving Reading in the evening peak, the line is far busier than it could ever have been in Tadpole days.

 

[coppercapped]

Let's face it, the Tadpoles were pretty dreadful from a passenger's point of view, they were just all that BR had to keep the line going at the end of steam. No matter how packed the one-and-a-half ex Hastings coaches were, I never saw a guard unlock the (non-corridor) compartments in the third coach. Since the narrow coaches were 2+2 seating, I suspect there were only about 100 seats on a three-coach set.

Looking at the full trains now leaving Reading in the evening peak, the line is far busier than it could ever have been in Tadpole days.

In the second half of the 1960s and in the early 1970s I worked in Crawley; every few weeks I visited my parents in Reading. Before I bought a van I used the trains from Three Bridges to Redhill (often pre-war Southern stock with bi-parting doors to the compartments - I forget the class description) and changed there to the Tadpoles, which had come from Tonbridge, for Reading. On Friday evenings they were full from Redhill as far as Dorking because, as you say, only about one and a half coaches were open. They were painfully slow up the hills between Reigate and Guildford - in summer one could admire the individual daisies on the trackside - and as soon as they gathered any sort of speed they braked for the next stop. Acceleration was 0 to 30mph - eventually! The only 'fast' bit of the journey was between Reading and Wokingham where the train shot through (for want of a better phrase) Winnersh and Earley.

In winter the windows steamed up and one couldn't see anything unless one accepted getting a wet sleeve from wiping the glass. Returning to Crawley on a Sunday afternoon or evening took a couple of hours allowing for the change at Redhill. The passenger numbers for this journey were much lower - it was always possible to get a forward facing window seat - and from Guildford onwards there were often no more than a dozen on board. The whole experience was slow and gloomy. When the Pressed Steel units took over the passenger numbers didn't collapse as HarleyDavidson pretends - but I am not sure the numbers increased either - they could simply spread out more!

 

[Minstral25]

With all due respect Gatwick is where the passengers are and the train planners have that in mind in what they are trying to do. Before the skip stop timetable was introduced, the previous timetable had stopping trains from Reading arriving at Redhill only a few minutes ahead of the Gatwick service.

The skip stop is fine - the only journey for which it causes any issue is Chilworth or Gomshall to Betchworth. Dorking West is within walking distance of Dorking Deepdene (although I acknowledge that Deepdene has awkward access). Off peak patronage would be limited at the small stations between Guildford and Redhill whatever the timetable.

As for TOC on TOC delays, some of them occur at the Redhill end of things as well. The paths through Guildford are no less critical than those between Redhill and Gatwick.

It is a massive shame that there won't be an increase in the frequency of services on the line as I think it would stimulate demand. The current timetable is probably about as good as it can get with the amount of resources available.

From personal experience there is far more local traffic on the trains I have used than Gatwick traffic which never seems that busy.

I've wondered though if it would be better to shorten the Reading to Redhill stopping service to just Reading - Guildford, and then use skip-stopping on 2 Gatwick's per hour between Guildford and Redhill - yes the service would slow up (6-10 minutes longer, but would be more regular to encourage customer growth.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Skip stop is pointless, it serves no useful purpose other than probably to stop other operators in and I've told you that and I should know because I've lived & used the line for the last 45 years. Yes I stopped using it a while ago now, because the service is utterly useless as I can't do a journey from one station to the next.

That's why I use the car so much, so much more convenient that GWRs pathetic & useless offering, none of which BTW connect out of services from London, in fact the stopper regularly pulls out as the fast runs in, good bit of planning that. NOT!

It's a case of not what you know, but who you know in the magic handshake club if you want to get any chance of decent service these days.

It could be very interesting to see what happens if FG get the SW franchise and see if there's any sort of joined up thinking or integration between the two. But I very much doubt it.

 

[30907]

Skip stop is pointless, it serves no useful purpose other than probably to stop other operators in and I've told you that and I should know because I've lived & used the line for the last 45 years. Yes I stopped using it a while ago now, because the service is utterly useless as I can't do a journey from one station to the next.

1. What other operators? And would reducing the service as you are suggesting make a difference?
2. So you can't get from Gomshall to Dorking West off-peak, I take it. And the franchising system means the Deepdene stop can't be moved to Dorking West?

 

[MatthewRead]

What?

Operation of the line passed from the SR to WR about 35 to 40 years ago because somewhere, someone in a BR marketing department realised that more people would use the line if the trains went to Gatwick rather than Tonbridge. They also realised that the best use of capacity was to serve the principal stations on the line. Presumably, very few people used it in those days.

Regardless of the virtues and merits of Tadpole units, Hampshire units, class 119s or 117s, the stock was replaced with brand new rolling stock in the early 1990s under the auspices of Network South East. The units used between 1980 and 1993 have absolutely nothing to do with the current fortunes of the line. As it is, I suspect that most passengers actually preferred the WR units to the suburban layout of the southern units (although I acknowledge that Tadpole units had carriages from dispanded Hastings units which some people could possibly have preferred).

The timetable changes brought in with the Turbos in the early 1990s meant that Blackwater got two trains an hour. The current timetable means that there are two trains an hour from Reading to Redhill. Skip stopping is the only way to allow the stopper to make the journey from Reading to Redhill and back in three hours and demand is significantly more on the western side of Guildford than the eastern side.

The changes at Gatwick to move the Gatwick Express to the fast line side of the station have improved reliability of the Reading to Gatwick line. I suspect that South West Trains at the Reading end cause as many delays to the tightly timed North Downs Line services as vice versa.

Just out of interest when did the last Tadpole units run on the North Downs line was it before or after the GWML withdrew first gen DMU's?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just out of interest when did the last Tadpole units run on the North Downs line was it before or after the GWML withdrew first gen DMU's?

Early 80s at the latest. I was a regular user of the line from about 83/4 and never once saw, let alone used, a Tadpole. This was well before first gen DMUs disappeared from the GWML.

 

[Ianno87]

Skip stop is pointless, it serves no useful purpose other than probably to stop other operators in and I've told you that and I should know because I've lived & used the line for the last 45 years. Yes I stopped using it a while ago now, because the service is utterly useless as I can't do a journey from one station to the next.

That's why I use the car so much, so much more convenient that GWRs pathetic & useless offering, none of which BTW connect out of services from London, in fact the stopper regularly pulls out as the fast runs in, good bit of planning that. NOT!

It's a case of not what you know, but who you know in the magic handshake club if you want to get any chance of decent service these days.

It could be very interesting to see what happens if FG get the SW franchise and see if there's any sort of joined up thinking or integration between the two. But I very much doubt it.

The North Downs timetable, while being no means perfect, is driven around:
-The need for both the Gatwick 'fast' and Redhill 'slow' to achieve a 3 hour round trip time to fit within the resource base
-Effectively, a single platform at Redhill to reverse 1 x slow terminator and 1 x fast per direction until Platform 0 is built
-Fitting the hourly Gatwick in a path on the BML Slow Lines each way
-Crossing across the SWT Portsmouth service between Shalford Jn and Guildford, with Redhill-bound trains being quite restricted in the platforms they use as they 'parallel move' with trains in the opposite direction, so generally have to share use of P4 with Pompey line services
-Having trains roughly 30 minutes apart at Reading (where demand is highest)
-Fitting around the SWT Guildford-Aldershot-Ascot service and the connections that has to make with other services (rendering it surprisingly inflexible)

The timetable pattern is also structured around two former constraints, but until now there hasn't been resources available to take advantage of their removal:
-The old 4A/4B layout at Reading, where the Gatwick/Redhills had to use each platform in the 28 minute period it was not occupied by a Waterloo service (e.g. today the 04/34 Gatwick departure is ahead of the 10/40 Waterloo arrival, ahead of the 42/12 Waterloo departure, etc)
-The pre-Platform 7 layout at Gatwick, where Gatwick Expresses were chewing up 1 & 2 for most of the hour, so the Reading services were having to thread their way through Platform 3 (between Arun Valley services) to the carriage sidings (to vacate the platform) and back again

When you consider the above, not a bad timetable at all!