3rd Rail - Removed Track Miles

[NSEUser]

Apologies if this is not posted in the right category. I have been wondering for a while how many track miles of UK railway have been removed (or converted to OHLE) over the years, that were already 3rd rail electrified.

Lines that spring to mind are:

* Copyhold Junction to Horsted Keynes
* Folkestone Harbour Branch
* Elmers End to Addiscombe
* West Croydon to Wimbledon (became Croydon Tram)
* North London Line (various parts converted to OHLE)

If a system of 'trading miles' (old for new) was allowed, would there be enough miles of new 3rd rail lines to cover 1 or more of the diesel islands south of the Thames?

 

[Gloster]

Woodside to Selsdon
Dover Western Docks
Newhaven Harbour
Nunhead to Crystal Palace High Level
Holborn Viaduct

I am not sure about the North London running to Kensington Olympia.

A couple I am not sure about: Bricklayer’s Arms, Staines and Virginia Water west curves, and the Fawkham Junction to Southfleet Junction connection.

 

[zwk500]

Newhaven Harbour

Harbour is still fully open and electrified. Marine retains third rail for 8 or 12 cars into the sidings, so has not lost any 'route miles' of electrification (this is to facilitate shunting a passenger unit forced to terminate at Newhaven harbour for the northbound departure).

I am not sure about the North London running to Kensington Olympia.

Third rail was extended on the WLL, if anything, to North Pole Jn for the Eurostar connection.

If a system of 'trading miles' (old for new) was allowed, would there be enough miles of new 3rd rail lines to cover 1 or more of the diesel islands south of the Thames?

The shortest third rail gap is Wokingham to Aldershot, which is about 12 miles. Reigate to Guildford is 15 miles. Marshlink and Uckfield are both about 25 miles. Leaving aside the tiny spurs, you have 3 miles for the Ardingly Branch, 6 miles of Wimbledon to West Croydon, 6 miles of Elemers end to Selsdon and 4 miles of Nunhead to Crystal Palace. I don't know how much of the NLL was Third rail before it was converted, which would need to be added to the 19 miles of third rail removed.
So, in theory, yes you could have 'traded' the closed sections for the gaps at Wokingham or Reigate, although you would need to contemplate if the conversion of the ELL counts as entirely new 3rd rail or if only the section beyond Shoreditch High Street counts, as the southern section was previously 4th Rail. However it should be pointed out that new 3rd rail isn't banned and so a 'mileage exchange' wouldn't be needed.

 

[L+Y]

In Merseyside, Southport to Crossens, Bootle to Aintree, and the lines into Liverpool Exchange, as well as removal of the four track section south of Sandhills and various sidings.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Tyneside suburban lines
Watford High Street-Rickmansworth and Croxley Green

 

[alistairlees]

The Liverpool Overhead Railway in its entirety.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Manchester Victoria - Bury (now part of Metrolink)

 

[Gloster]

Harbour is still fully open and electrified. Marine retains third rail for 8 or 12 cars into the sidings, so has not lost any 'route miles' of electrification (this is to facilitate shunting a passenger unit forced to terminate at Newhaven harbour for the northbound departure).

Third rail was extended on the WLL, if anything, to North Pole Jn for the Eurostar connection.

The shortest third rail gap is Wokingham to Aldershot, which is about 12 miles. Reigate to Guildford is 15 miles. Marshlink and Uckfield are both about 25 miles. Leaving aside the tiny spurs, you have 3 miles for the Ardingly Branch, 6 miles of Wimbledon to West Croydon, 6 miles of Elemers end to Selsdon and 4 miles of Nunhead to Crystal Palace. I don't know how much of the NLL was Third rail before it was converted, which would need to be added to the 19 miles of third rail removed.
So, in theory, yes you could have 'traded' the closed sections for the gaps at Wokingham or Reigate, although you would need to contemplate if the conversion of the ELL counts as entirely new 3rd rail or if only the section beyond Shoreditch High Street counts, as the southern section was previously 4th Rail. However it should be pointed out that new 3rd rail isn't banned and so a 'mileage exchange' wouldn't be needed.

Sorry, I was thinking of Marine. However, I thought it was now a freight siding.

I was thinking of the LNWR-era trains, which I think ran from Willesden down to Olympia. I have just remembered my reprint of a 1948 book, which shows the trains running from Willesden to Earl’s Court. It also shows South Acton to the old Kew Bridge NSWJR platforms (closed 1940) and Broad Street.

If fourth-rail is allowed, you have got the Acton Town-South Acton shuttle.

 

[alistairlees]

Broad Street in London too.

 

[Flange Squeal]

If looking for physical track mileage rather than just overall end to end closed/converted lines, then the singling of the Alton branch west of Farnham adds around 8 miles (save for the loop at Bentley). I'm not sure when the Frimley to Ash Vale section of the Ascot to Aldershot branch was singled - if it was post-electrification then that would add another couple of miles.

 

[Gloster]

I'm not sure when the Frimley to Ash Vale section of the Ascot to Aldershot branch was singled - if it was post-electrification then that would add another couple of miles.

Frimley Junction-Ash Vale was always single.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Frimley Junction-Ash Vale was always single.

Oh right, interesting. I assumed it was done around a similar time, given the structures are all double track - must’ve just been future proofing that never got utilised! Possibly flirting with going off-topic here, but I seem to recall there were plans around the time of the Bournemouth to Weymouth electrification to also single the Effingham-Leatherhead link and also the Ascot branch (so presumably Frimley Jct to Ascot), which might be what led me to think that wasn’t always single. Think this was around the time of the Alton singling, which of course did go ahead?

 

[Irascible]

I don't know how much of the NLL was Third rail before it was converted

All of it! albeit only the pasenger lines. I think! fairly sure I remember right ( it's been a long time since I used it ) that they turned the OLE off on the weekends for a while.

 

[Recessio]

Seaford branch was singled between Newhaven and Seaford in 1975. I think the line from Selsdon was lifted and used to electrify down to East Grinstead.

What about the North Woolwich end of the NLL? Not sure if the section from Stratford that is now DLR is 3rd or 4th rail electrified, so whether it would affect the "mileage" count.

 

[Gloster]

Oh right, interesting. I assumed it was done around a similar time, given the structures are all double track - must’ve just been future proofing that never got utilised! Possibly flirting with going off-topic here, but I seem to recall there were plans around the time of the Bournemouth to Weymouth electrification to also single the Effingham-Leatherhead link and also the Ascot branch (so presumably Frimley Jct to Ascot), which might be what led me to think that wasn’t always single. Think this was around the time of the Alton singling, which of course did go ahead?

Farnham-Alton singled 1980; Moreton-Dorchester singled 1985.

Seaford branch was singled between Newhaven and Seaford in 1975. I think the line from Selsdon was lifted and used to electrify down to East Grinstead.

What about the North Woolwich end of the NLL? Not sure if the section from Stratford that is now DLR is 3rd or 4th rail electrified, so whether it would affect the "mileage" count.

Newhaven-Seaford singled 1973.

 

[Snow1964]

There are some bits still open to freight where third rail has been removed, eg :
Northam junction - Canute Road (alongside old Southampton terminus), and west spur at Northam closed
Acton - Kew bridge (was 4th rail), not sure about other spur to Brentford

Also don't think Reading Southern station has been mentioned yet, replaced by diversion and extra platforms at Reading General.

Sturt Lane - Frimley spur was electrified (slow lines only to junction with Alton branch then Brookwood), although the fast lines were added in 1966 when electrification extended towards Bournemouth.

If want to be pedantic on track miles, there are stations like Portsmouth and Southsea where number of electrified platforms closed so the electrified mileage reduced.

If the purpose of this thread is to find 100+ miles of lifted third rail to justify trading it into the current network gaps, then should be successful. Although remains to be seen if safety regulator sees it as less safe than what used to exist.

 

[snowball]

Have some short sections of track at Hunts Cross had their 3rd rail removed?

 

[zwk500]

Although remains to be seen if safety regulator sees it as less safe than what used to exist.

The safety regulator assesses each installation on it's own merits. It would be down to scheme designers to find an acceptable solution to the risks as presented at the time. Comparison to other systems would not factor in.

 

[dosxuk]

If the purpose of this thread is to find 100+ miles of lifted third rail to justify trading it into the current network gaps, then should be successful. Although remains to be seen if safety regulator sees it as less safe than what used to exist.

This isn't how managing safety works. You're never going to successfully argue that newly electrified piece of track x is safe simply because unrelated piece of track y has had it's third rail removed. Try arguing it with something else "I can put this new asbestos panelling up in this school safely, because I've removed the same amount from that hospital" - it's just nonsense.

If you want to argue that adding third rail to track x is safe, you need to do so on it's own merits.

 

[pdeaves]

You might find the content of http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm interesting (my site but not my research).

 

[Snow1964]

If you want to argue that adding third rail to track x is safe, you need to do so on it's own merits.

Not quite on its own merits, because it is reasonable to offset other risks that can be discontinued. Eg removal of a diesel fuelling facility (fire, pollution, harmful substances etc).

What makes the calculation difficult is how to factor in things like the diesel trains being reallocated elsewhere, not needing to maintain diesel trains reduces risks in workshop, but if problem is moved to another site how much overall reduction is there.

 

[DanNCL]

ECML between Newcastle and Benton. Third rail removed in 1967, 25kV wires were added in 1991.

On the North Tyneside loop the third rail was removed in 1967 and DC wires added in two stages, in 1980 and 1982.

The Newcastle Riverside line lost the third rail electrification in 1967 and closed completely a few years later.

The Newcastle - South Shields line lost its third rail electrification in 1963 and gained DC wires in two stages, in 1981 and 1984.

The High Level Bridge has had three electrification systems over the years. The upper deck had third rail until 1963 and 25kV wires from 1991, whilst the lower deck had DC tramway wires until the 1950s.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Oh right, interesting. I assumed it was done around a similar time, given the structures are all double track - must’ve just been future proofing that never got utilised! Possibly flirting with going off-topic here, but I seem to recall there were plans around the time of the Bournemouth to Weymouth electrification to also single the Effingham-Leatherhead link and also the Ascot branch (so presumably Frimley Jct to Ascot), which might be what led me to think that wasn’t always single. Think this was around the time of the Alton singling, which of course did go ahead?

Allegedly the singling from Farnham to Alton was such a sh*g-up that the other plans were shelved smartish. Until the extension to Bentley Loop (during the resignalling - another sh*g-up) signallers had to set routes from Bentley in a set order when crossing trains; clearing both starting signals led to such a current drain that the signals turned into disco lights!
Pat

 

[zwk500]

Not quite on its own merits, because it is reasonable to offset other risks that can be discontinued. Eg removal of a diesel fuelling facility (fire, pollution, harmful substances etc).

What makes the calculation difficult is how to factor in things like the diesel trains being reallocated elsewhere, not needing to maintain diesel trains reduces risks in workshop, but if problem is moved to another site how much overall reduction is there.

That's all part of the overall scheme's merits.

 

[edwin_m]

Broad Street in London too.

Most of the section to Dalston Junction was reinstated, including third rail, to connect to the East London Line, other parts of which were converted from fourth rail to third rail. The Waterloo and City went the other way. Not sure if that counts plus or minus.

 

[Gloster]

Allegedly the singling from Farnham to Alton was such a sh*g-up that the other plans were shelved smartish. Until the extension to Bentley Loop (during the resignalling - another sh*g-up) signallers had to set routes from Bentley in a set order when crossing trains; clearing both starting signals led to such a current drain that the signals turned into disco lights!
Pat

The singling in 1980 had no intermediate loop: the loop at Bentley was only added in 1987. Holybourne Siding had been added in 1986.

 

[Elecman]

Morecambe to Lancaster Green Ayre

 

[181]

Farnham-Alton singled 1980

Are you sure of that? I thought I remembered reading about it (as a current event) later in the 1980s; the Friends of Alton Station website says 1985; and in this cab ride video from 1988 much of the disused track is still in place.

 

[randyrippley]

Morecambe to Lancaster Green Ayre

that was overhead not 3rd rail

 

[Steve Harris]

What about the North Woolwich end of the NLL? Not sure if the section from Stratford that is now DLR is 3rd or 4th rail electrified, so whether it would affect the "mileage" count.

The NLL as stated elsewhere in this thread was 3rd rail in its entirety from Richmond to North Woolwich. (The 4 track section from the ECML to Dalston used to have 2 lines of OHLE and 2 lines 3rd Rail with other parts being dual electrified (Camden - Stratford section springs to mind)). The West London Line (Willesden Jnc - Clapham Jnc) wasn't 3rd rail until Eurostar came to town and the juice rail was extended from Clapham to North Pole. ( I travelled on both lines in the 80's, 90's and early 00's). I haven't been on the Stratford - Custom House - Woolwich section since it went to DLR and I can't add dates to when the changes took effect as they were all observations when out spotting on Travelcards or Rovers.