3rd Rail Infill suggestions

[D365]

… and any train if there was a recharge point may not be able to spend 2 plus hours recharging before having to head back in the direction that it came from in the first place!

The intention is for recharging to be a lot more rapid than two hours. Think in the region of four to twenty minutes at either end of the line, to get you to the next charging point.

 

[zwk500]

On some routes, the stretch may only be a couple of miles long. Other routes, say like Glasgow to Aberdeen I am guessing that that would be more than a couple of miles? It certainly more than a couple of miles between Oxted to Uckfield and Ore to Ashford. Some of the places, it is very likely that you would not be able to build a recharge point and any train if there was a recharge point may not be able to spend 2 plus hours recharging before having to head back in the direction that it came from in the first place!

On any route that would be considered for 3rd rail electrification, there is no gap bigger than 30 miles. Some termini might need 'booster' charging points like Ashford or Uckfield, but most will be able to charge quite happily on the existing sections of 3rd rail between the gaps (e.g. Gatwick-Reigate, Guildford-Ash, Wokingham-Reading).

Most routes with long unelectrified sections will be running between big cities, where the inner routes are electrified so the total distance off the wires is reduced.

 

[AM9]

On any route that would be considered for 3rd rail electrification, there is no gap bigger than 30 miles. Some termini might need 'booster' charging points like Ashford or Uckfield, but most will be able to charge quite happily on the existing sections of 3rd rail between the gaps (e.g. Gatwick-Reigate, Guildford-Ash, Wokingham-Reading).

Most routes with long unelectrified sections will be running between big cities, where the inner routes are electrified so the total distance off the wires is reduced.

I think that the opinions on opportunities for charging batteries on an operational electrified main line are in general unduly pessimistic here. Clearly the issue doesn't really exist on an OoLE equipped mainline. On a 3rd rail line, there can be issues if charging is simply allowed on demand as even on a 10,000A line supply, the current could get near to the limit with more than 2 trains in the section, - but only when they are using maximum power, i.e. during acceleration or climbing long gradients. The rest of the time, trains like Electrostars moderate their power to maintaining a set speed (moderate demand), coasting (very low demand), or braking (returning power to the 3rd rail). Now if the battery trains had charging managed according to local conditions in terms of availability i.e., the number of trains on the section, (probably reflected in the line voltage), the topography of the route, (gradients, acceleration zones from stations and junctions/PSRs) and any other relevant local features, the charging cycle could be accommodated within reasonable limits. Local charging authorisation could be enabled by track balises that wewre read when the battery train was in a 'managed' mode. When 'on demand' charging was permitted, an end of zone balise could authorise the train to do so.
Managed charging of batterieswill be a big thing where legacy networks and supplies are taking on large uncontrolled loads, e.g. home charging of EVs, so the technology will be available and mature.

 

[RobShipway]

I notice that Hitachi on their Youtube channel themselves in the video

are mentioning about either new trains having battery power so that a train can travel between along points where no OHLE is available. They also mention that existing trains that they have built could have diesel engines swapped out and replaced with batteries. But I think the mileage they are quoting is less than any of the diesel engines that the batteries replacing them can travel. This means that they believe that there is going to be more in the form of OHLE put up, I presume. I did cheekily ask the question on the Youtube video, whether the class 395 units would be able to have batteries added to them?

On any route that would be considered for 3rd rail electrification, there is no gap bigger than 30 miles. Some termini might need 'booster' charging points like Ashford or Uckfield, but most will be able to charge quite happily on the existing sections of 3rd rail between the gaps (e.g. Gatwick-Reigate, Guildford-Ash, Wokingham-Reading).

Most routes with long unelectrified sections will be running between big cities, where the inner routes are electrified so the total distance off the wires is reduced.

The gaps for the North down service is actually more Redhill - Reigate, Guildford-Ash, North Camp-Wokingham.

I think that the opinions on opportunities for charging batteries on an operational electrified main line are in general unduly pessimistic here. Clearly the issue doesn't really exist on an OoLE equipped mainline. On a 3rd rail line, there can be issues if charging is simply allowed on demand as even on a 10,000A line supply, the current could get near to the limit with more than 2 trains in the section, - but only when they are using maximum power, i.e. during acceleration or climbing long gradients. The rest of the time, trains like Electrostars moderate their power to maintaining a set speed (moderate demand), coasting (very low demand), or braking (returning power to the 3rd rail). Now if the battery trains had charging managed according to local conditions in terms of availability i.e., the number of trains on the section, (probably reflected in the line voltage), the topography of the route, (gradients, acceleration zones from stations and junctions/PSRs) and any other relevant local features, the charging cycle could be accommodated within reasonable limits. Local charging authorisation could be enabled by track balises that wewre read when the battery train was in a 'managed' mode. When 'on demand' charging was permitted, an end of zone balise could authorise the train to do so.
Managed charging of batterieswill be a big thing where legacy networks and supplies are taking on large uncontrolled loads, e.g. home charging of EVs, so the technology will be available and mature.

I have to agree with you there AM9, 100%.

Other manufacturers as well as Hitachi are getting on board with having batteries operate the trains. You have have Stadler with the class 756, that are tri - mode trains with OHLE, batteries and a diesel generator to power the trains. I believe their Metro Platform (I.e class 777) as well s being dual mode to be able to be used on 3rd rail and OHLE, can also be adapted to have batteries attached to the train. How far those batteries are likely to take the trains, time will tell as it is possibly only last mile.

 

[zwk500]

The gaps for the North down service is actually more Redhill - Reigate, Guildford-Ash, North Camp-Wokingham.

I named the places with 3rd rail where batteries could be charged from the traction supply, in theory. You've named 2 places with 3rd rail and 1 without, so I'm not sure what point you're making?

I believe their Metro Platform (I.e class 777) as well s being dual mode to be able to be used on 3rd rail and OHLE, can also be adapted to have batteries attached to the train. How far those batteries are likely to take the trains, time will tell as it is possibly only last mile.

777s are expected to operate Chester-Crewe and on a couple of other lines on Batteries. I'm not sure if they'll actually be fitted with a pantograph to charge from the OLE at Crewe during layover, or just have the passive provision for future use.

 

[Mikey C]

I named the places with 3rd rail where batteries could be charged from the traction supply, in theory. You've named 2 places with 3rd rail and 1 without, so I'm not sure what point you're making?


777s are expected to operate Chester-Crewe and on a couple of other lines on Batteries. I'm not sure if they'll actually be fitted with a pantograph to charge from the OLE at Crewe during layover, or just have the passive provision for future use.

I can see batteries being perfect for quiet branch lines where 90% of a line is electrified but the final diversion onto a quiet branch line gets a minimal service making electrification hard to justify or at least a long way down the queue. That way keeping the batteries well charged shouldn't be a problem either, as most of the service will be under wires/on 3rd rail.

To me Chester to Crewe should be fairly high up the list to be OHLE wired, especially with Avanti ordering bimodes to operate the North Wales service, as this is an important section of mainline. It's a pretty long run too, in relation to the length of the Merseyrail network

 

[Bald Rick]

They also mention that existing trains that they have built could have diesel engines swapped out and replaced with batteries

Which is precisely what Hitachi are going to do with one of the Class 803s. One engine out, one battery pack in. This is to prove the concept, but I have no doubt that others will follow swiftly.

 

[cle]

To me Chester to Crewe should be fairly high up the list to be OHLE wired, especially with Avanti ordering bimodes to operate the North Wales service, as this is an important section of mainline. It's a pretty long run too, in relation to the length of the Merseyrail network

It's supposedly a tricky one, lots of low bridges and so forth. And as an non-stop, pretty flat stretch, the time-saving would not be amazing in itself.

Better would be to wire the whole coast and up to Runcorn (Halton) and Warrington BQ. A lot more could be run with the wires then, and you'd see better % journey time improvements on the limited and all-stops services.

 

[Minstral25]

Which is precisely what Hitachi are going to do with one of the Class 803s. One engine out, one battery pack in. This is to prove the concept, but I have no doubt that others will follow swiftly.

Could they do that with 769's for North Downs as well?

 

[43096]

Which is precisely what Hitachi are going to do with one of the Class 803s. One engine out, one battery pack in. This is to prove the concept, but I have no doubt that others will follow swiftly.

I assume you mean 802?

 

[Bald Rick]

I assume you mean 802?

Err possibly. Not too good on train numbers! Whatever goes to Devon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2021 ==

Could they do that with 769's for North Downs as well?

Someone could. But probably not Hitachi.