379 110mph testing

[Pumbaa]

379 testing to begin shortly on WCML. Bombardier want to prove they can deliver a 110mph product. Siemens obviously already have theirs.

 

[Nym]

So because Seimens has something now Derby want to prove their 20 year old product can do the same?

 

[Pumbaa]

And use it as a test-bed for the yet-to-be-tendered 110mph units for Thameslink/MML.

 

[Class377/5]

So because Seimens has something now Derby want to prove their 20 year old product can do the same?

The 379 isn't an Electrostar based product but an Adventra based one. It just looks like an Electrostar.

So Bombardier will be tendering an Adventra solution for Thameslink then.

 

[edwin_m]

Now that LM/Siemens have upgraded the 350s without major problems, I suggest that a 110mph capability will be pretty much essential for future EMU orders (except Metro types). Even if the intitial route doesn't need it, the speed may be upgraded later or the ROSCOs may need to lease it on another route later in its life.

Why is the 379 more suitable for 110mph than the 375/377/etc design? Isn't the running gear pretty much identical? There are opportunities for Bombardier if they can also upgrade the older units.

 

[jopsuk]

Is this going to be purely at weekends, or will the testing mean short formations in the peaks? As far as I know, at the moment in the peak Stansted Express uses nine 8-car (2 x 4-car) formations and Cambridge services use three 12-car (3 x 4-car) formations- leaving three for spare/servicing. Not sure if there's enough slack in the 317 fleet to swap a Stansted Express set out?

 

[Class377/5]

Why is the 379 more suitable for 110mph than the 375/377/etc design? Isn't the running gear pretty much identical? There are opportunities for Bombardier if they can also upgrade the older units.

Because the 379 is Adventra body design and now the basis of new tenders from Bombardier.

 

[edwin_m]

Why does the body design affect the top speed? Something to do with stressing/fatigue or does some new structural requirement kick in?

 

[Class377/5]

Why does the body design affect the top speed? Something to do with stressing/fatigue or does some new structural requirement kick in?

Because the higher speeds needs to be strong so if an impact happened at 110mph, it would be able to provide as much protection as 100mph.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'll take that last answer as "I don't know".

They're using the 379 as that's what future bids will be based on. If there are structural benefits, they are incidental. The choice of 379 over other products is a commercial one.

 

[swt_passenger]

And use it as a test-bed for the yet-to-be-tendered 110mph units for Thameslink/MML.

Is 'Thameslink' in this context short for the 'Thameslink/Southern/Great Northern' merged franchise, ie not to be confused with the order Siemens successfully bid for?

Or is it the order notionally by Southern but on behalf of the DfT for use on other routes yet to be decided?

 

[anthony263]

Is 'Thameslink' in this context short for the 'Thameslink/Southern/Great Northern' merged franchise, ie not to be confused with the order Siemens successfully bid for?

Or is it the order notionally by Southern but on behalf of the DfT for use on other routes yet to be decided?

I believe it is for the latter although I could be wrong

 

[Pumbaa]

The latter, yes. Apologies for the confusion.

 

[asylumxl]

The 379 isn't an Electrostar based product but an Adventra based one. It just looks like an Electrostar.

So Bombardier will be tendering an Adventra solution for Thameslink then.

It doesn't matter what they call it. If it's brown and smelly it's still ****...

 

[317666]

It doesn't matter what they call it. If it's brown and smelly it's still ****...

Hear hear!

On a more serious note though, how many 379s will be taken out of service in order for these tests to happen?

 

[Geezertronic]

Hear hear!

On a more serious note though, how many 379s will be taken out of service in order for these tests to happen?

Didn't they do the 350 testing overnight?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Didn't they do the 350 testing overnight?

dunno, but LM did take some out of service for the testing

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because the 379 is Adventra body design and now the basis of new tenders from Bombardier.

Aventra. http://www.bombardier.com/en/corporate/media-centre/press-releases/details?docID=0901260d802b99e6

General brochure here:
http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/...dier_Transportation_in_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

Contains a photo and this text:

Bombardier’s next generation EMU, the BOMBARDIER
AVENTRA, soon to enter the market, will incorporate
innovative design, as well as offering dependable
performance and ease of maintainability. Aerodynamic
styling, spacious interiors for increased capacity,
lightweight vehicles and bogies and leading edge
propulsion equipment will assure that Bombardier remains
at the forefront of Electrical Multiple Unit design.

All you can tell from this is that it has an aerodynamic nose and no corridor connection

 

[jopsuk]

There's extra transit required for the 379s though. The first Up Stansted Express is at 0600 and it's a 15-minute service therein. The 12-car services from Cambridge are at 0647, 0717 and 0747 (I think- the 0747 is certainly the last one).

 

[HSTEd]

This seems to imply that most modern 100mph units can make 110mph.....

This would mean that we should be aiming at 110mph as the ruling non-metro linespeed.... rather than 100mph.

 

[D365]

This seems to imply that most modern 100mph units can make 110mph.....

This would mean that we should be aiming at 110mph as the ruling non-metro linespeed.... rather than 100mph.

I asked about Electrostars not too long ago and some people don't seem too sure that they could be viably upgraded for 110mph service, like has been done to 350/1...

As an aside, could/will Aventra be backwards compatible with the 377 class, if this is to be ordered through the Southern 116+140?

 

[Chris125]

I'm happy to be corrected by i don't believe the 379 actually uses the Aventra design, it just uses some of the proposed features a bit like the Class 380. A good example would be the use of conventional bogies as per previous Electrostars rather than the lighter inside bearing design.

That said, i'm sure i read an article earlier this year that they were working on an entirely new platform, perhaps an admittance that Siemens have stolen a march on them with the Desiro City which was said to have come out on top in the Thameslink competition.

Chris

 

[edwin_m]

Surely Aventra is the new platform?

Although if they are going to fit the new bogie to future builds I can't really see the point in pushing the old one out to 110mph now, unless it is actually to prove that the older stock can restrospectively be upgraded.

 

[Class377/5]

Been reported on WNXX that the units will be tested between Crewe and Rugby.

It doesn't matter what they call it. If it's brown and smelly it's still ****...

Hey I just work with them

Aventra. http://www.bombardier.com/en/corporate/media-centre/press-releases/details?docID=0901260d802b99e6

General brochure here:
http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/...dier_Transportation_in_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

Contains a photo and this text:

All you can tell from this is that it has an aerodynamic nose and no corridor connection

No all you can tell from that is that the Adventra shown off was the Thameslink tender which didn't require corridor connections. Same as the Siemens Desiro City design.

Not as well the leaflet you linked to was from 2009, when Derby thought it had Thameslink in the bag. Hence why they said coming soon.

I'm happy to be corrected by i don't believe the 379 actually uses the Aventra design, it just uses some of the proposed features a bit like the Class 380. A good example would be the use of conventional bogies as per previous Electrostars rather than the lighter inside bearing design.

That said, i'm sure i read an article earlier this year that they were working on an entirely new platform, perhaps an admittance that Siemens have stolen a march on them with the Desiro City which was said to have come out on top in the Thameslink competition.

Chris

That's what I understood the 379 were. Part Adventra, part Electrostar using the new bodies like the 377/6 and 377/7 will, hence new window set up.

We may never fully know the story and if Adventra has been redesigned behind closed doors to compete better with the Desiro City design. I'm trying to remember that article myself.

Surely Aventra is the new platform?

Although if they are going to fit the new bogie to future builds I can't really see the point in pushing the old one out to 110mph now, unless it is actually to prove that the older stock can restrospectively be upgraded.

 

[tbtc]

This may be a dumb question, but do Bombardier hire the train back from the TOC?

Since its owned by the ROSCO and operated by the TOC, it obviously doesn't belong to Bombardier any more, so do they rely on goodwill to borrow one back?

 

[HSTEd]

I imagine it would be in the TOC's best interest to allow tests that prove that 379s can 110mph to go forward.

Then they can order new 379 type units to replcae the expensive to operate loco hauled formations.

 

[bronzeonion]

Class 379's are pretty much any other Electrostar apart from the different design windows which can also be seen on the 378's and the new 377/6's and the OS is Linux based and not Windows. Oh and of course all the different lights like at railhead level and on the pantograph.

 

[notadriver]

I think the 379s are less powerful than the 378s. Pity a 378 (regeared for 110 mph) couldnt be used instead

 

[MCR247]

I imagine it would be in the TOC's best interest to allow tests that prove that 379s can 110mph to go forward.

Then they can order new 379 type units to replcae the expensive to operate loco hauled formations.

I think there is a lot of 'ifs' there before you can say it is in the GAs best interests

 

[WatcherZero]

NR's plans for the next 30 years do seem to include raising the archetypal prevailing linespeeds for each type of service.