378 formation

[badassunicorn]

Hi, I noticed passing through Stratford earlier that London overground 378s pan coach appears to be the wrong way round? In every AC train I work with the pan is in the middle of the unit practically, not closest to the driving end. Does that make sense? Does anyone know if they are all like this?
Thanks

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes they are all the same. Don't think they are actually wrong, just not the same as older units.

Might not be so obvious when the fifth cars are fitted though, depending on how they do it of course.

If they ever fit the 444 with a pan, it won't be in the middle of the unit either though.

 

[MK Tom]

I believe the Heathrow Express 332s are also arranged like this.

Back in the day some class 309s had the pantographs at the front above the cab.

 

[455driver]

Back in the day some class 309s had the pantographs at the front above the cab.

Because the 309/1s were originally built as 2 coach units and were then extended to 4 coach units.

 

[starrymarkb]

I suspect with the 332 it's to allow First Class access to the Disabled loo which on 33x units is underneath the Pantograph

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Am I right in thinking that (other than the 309/1s) the last EMUs built with the pantograph on the driving car would be the 307s?

 

[bb21]

On Pendolinos, pantos are in Coach C and Coach H but only one is ever needed (third coach from either ends). As already mentioned by others, it is by no means a rare occurrence.

 

[455driver]

Am I right in thinking that (other than the 309/1s) the last EMUs built with the pantograph on the driving car would be the 307s?

Yes I think so, the 307s always looked odd with the pan on the rear of a driving coach.

 

[Domh245]

Am I right in thinking that (other than the 309/1s) the last EMUs built with the pantograph on the driving car would be the 307s?

Would it not be the class 395s?

 

[455driver]

I think he was asking about proper trains not plastic ones!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes I think so, the 307s always looked odd with the pan on the rear of a driving coach.

Only ever rode them in their Leeds-Doncaster days- loved the big comfortable declassified 1st class seats under the pantograph behind the cab (and being a kid, a DayRover was only £1.20 back then!).

 

[O L Leigh]

Am I right in thinking that (other than the 309/1s) the last EMUs built with the pantograph on the driving car would be the 307s?

Not as such, no.

The Cl307s were originally built for 1500V DC OLE operation and, as such, had the pan in the centre of the unit. This is because, as built, the motor brake coach was one of the intermediate vehicles. It was only during conversion to 6.25kV/25kV AC OLE operation that one of the driving trailers was converted to become a motor brake coach and the pan shifted from the centre of the unit to one end.

It's not even correct to say that the Cl307s were the last to be built this way around, as they pre-date the Cl309s by about 8 years. Indeed, even the conversion from 1500V DC to 6.25kV/25kV AC predates the introduction of the Cl309s by about 2 years.

O L Leigh

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not as such, no.

The Cl307s were originally built for 1500V DC OLE operation and, as such, had the pan in the centre of the unit. This is because, as built, the motor brake coach was one of the intermediate vehicles. It was only during conversion to 6.25kV/25kV AC OLE operation that one of the driving trailers was converted to become a motor brake coach and the pan shifted from the centre of the unit to one end.

It's not even correct to say that the Cl307s were the last to be built this way around, as they pre-date the Cl309s by about 8 years. Indeed, even the conversion from 1500V DC to 6.25kV/25kV AC predates the introduction of the Cl309s by about 2 years.

O L Leigh

I was aware the 307s had been converted, but didn't realise the pan had been shifted to enable this- did a similar thing happen with the 306s? I did allow for the fact that the 309s were newer though, as indicated by the parentheses in my original post!

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes, but in the case of the Cl306s the pan went in the opposite direction, from the cab roof to the centre car.

O L Leigh

 

[MK Tom]

Didn't the 304s have their pantos on the driving car end of the second carriage? So not in the middle like modern 4-car units, but the other end of the same carriage, like the 378s and the 4-car 332s.

 

[patstonuk]

Yes they are all the same. Don't think they are actually wrong, just not the same as older units.

Might not be so obvious when the fifth cars are fitted though, depending on how they do it of course.

If they ever fit the 444 with a pan, it won't be in the middle of the unit either though.

The strange thing with the 378s was that when the additional MSO was inserted it was not placed between the DMSO and the pantograph end of the PTSO, but rather between the opposite (non-pantograph end) of the PTSO and the other DMSO. This had the effect of placing the pantograph (unusually) adjacent to the ends of vehicles 1 and 2 rather than the more usual symmetrical position between vehicles 2 and 3. The reason (if any) for this was discussed at length on other fora at the time without resolution. It will be interesting (and perhaps significant) to see whether this asymmetry is lessened or perpetuated when the forthcoming fifth vehicles are added.

 

[D7666]

Hi, I noticed passing through Stratford earlier that London overground 378s pan coach appears to be the wrong way round? In every AC train I work with the pan is in the middle of the unit practically, not closest to the driving end. Does that make sense? Does anyone know if they are all like this?
Thanks

I asked this question in different words about a year or more ago.

No-one could give a definitive answer why 378s are formed this way ... although I got several nonsense answers.

However a plausible but unsubstantiated answer was about depot internal layout and where pit side equipment or other access is placed. For this to be right, it would mean whatever the facility is that has this restriction, if it exists, has to have every unit for certain work the same way round.

It will also be interesting to see where the 5th car will be inserted w.r.t pan.

When I asked my original question I did mention the 5th car but this was before it had been formally announced - and the uninformed tried to shoot me down stating 5car 378s could never happen and they would never do SDO on the ELL !!! Just shows what level of dribble answers I got to the main point.

More.

There is also a difference between third rail pick-ups on 378s and other similar EMU.

On something similar like a 4car 375 or 377 shoes are on both bogies of the outer cars and none on the inner cars.

On a 378 they are on the outer bogies of the outer cars and the inner bogies of the inner cars.

So 375/377 and 378 all have four shoe locations [ok ok 8 if pedants really must count both sides separately] but placed differently.

I think maybe because of rules about underground trains in tubes not having through train power buses it might be that on DC while in ELL tunnels the 4car unit is electrically working as 2x2car rather than a single bus for the whole unit. I wonder when go 5car they will be electrically 3+2 - with the pan car the middle car of the 3. It would certainly explain it. BUT I emphasise I am speculating, I am not stating this but as a fact.

]

Am I right in thinking that (other than the 309/1s) the last EMUs built with the pantograph on the driving car would be the 307s?

Nope.

Class 373

I could also mention "Class 994"

Yet more.

360/2 are also not quite right ... the pan is not on the middle car, but on the 2nd or 4th car depending which way you look at it, although it is on the inner end of that car.

--
Nick

 

[Skoodle]

D7666, you are partially correct. All the units face the same way. On the ELL, the 378/1 units A end faces North, B faces South. However, when the 378/2 units make their way over to the ELL from Willesden, they are reversed with the B end facing North, A end facing South. Both types of units share the Maintenance facilities so I doubt there is any special configurations in the depot.

The 'elbow' of the pantograph on the 378s always points back towards the 'B' end.

 

[D7666]

D7666, you are partially correct. All the units face the same way. On the ELL, the 378/1 units A end faces North, B faces South.

Are they really hock:

I never noticed. I never thought about it, assumed they get turned in normal service (e.g. like 319s to Wimbledon loops, 455s Kinsgton etc loops, etc).

But I don't suppose they do, they have no loops or triangles in normal routes and services.

--
Nick

 

[ert47]

Are they really hock:

I never noticed. I never thought about it, assumed they get turned in normal service (e.g. like 319s to Wimbledon loops, 455s Kinsgton etc loops, etc).

But I don't suppose they do, they have no loops or triangles in normal routes and services.

One way (that I can think of) when a 378 can get reversed would be a service that departs from Clapham Junction on the other section of the loop. ie. from the WLL > SLL and vice versa (if possible, don't know the track layout around there) and then that same train using the connection between the ELL and NLL at Highbury & Islington.

Don't know how often such a movement would happen.

 

[jopsuk]

It would be very, very unlikely- whilst I'm pretty sure both Clapham platforms can be used for both services, it is not very likely a N/W unit will work a S/E service- and S/E units can't work N/W services.

 

[swt_passenger]

It would be very, very unlikely- whilst I'm pretty sure both Clapham platforms can be used for both services, it is not very likely a N/W unit will work a S/E service- and S/E units can't work N/W services.

You presumably mean the S/E 'DC only units' can't work N/W services, but there are plenty of dual voltage units used out of New Cross Gate depot that can do it. All the 'top-up' orders made after the original, to cater for the Dalston- Highbury extension, and the SLL takeover, were dual voltage stock.

I was told during the SLL commissioning trials that the intention was to position a dual voltage 'hot spare' unit in the siding at Clapham Junction (beyond P2), and that would be available to both routes, no idea if this happens in practice though.

 

[Skoodle]

NLL trains are regularly used on the ELL, other way around is not possible. Stock transfer is done via Crystal Palace.

 

[transmanche]

NLL trains are regularly used on the ELL, other way around is not possible.

Or to put it another way; the 378/1 trains are DC-only and only operate on the ELL. The 378/2 trains are dual-voltage and operate on both NLL and ELL.

 

[swt_passenger]

Or to put it another way; the 378/1 trains are DC-only and only operate on the ELL. The 378/2 trains are dual-voltage and operate on both NLL and ELL.

I thought that's what I'd already pointed out prior to Skoodle's post.

The original order of 378/1s was not large enough to operate the expanded ELL once the Highbury extension and the SLL 4 tph were added. The follow-on orders for these purposes were intentionally ordered as dual voltage, so in my book it is wrong to refer to the dual voltage units solely as 'NLL trains'.

 

[Skoodle]

Apologies, it's just a colloquial term we still use here at NXG when referring to the two different types.

 

[Skoodle]

"NLL" referring to any unit based at Willesden

 

[transmanche]

I thought that's what I'd already pointed out prior to Skoodle's post.

Yes, but I wanted to get it clarified before people started thinking that certain trains were 'captive' to the NLL.

The follow-on orders for these purposes were intentionally ordered as dual voltage, so in my book it is wrong to refer to the dual voltage units solely as 'NLL trains'.

Agreed.

 

[ert47]

Stock transfer is done via Crystal Palace.

I think this answers the mystery as to how stock gets reversed. If you mean that the transfer is via Gypsy Hill/Streatham Hill to get to Crystal Palace from Clapham Junction, then...

If not, I am confused by what you meant.

 

[Skoodle]

Yes when stock is transferred between depots it's via Crystal Palace, not via the SLL passenger service route.