377s at Wimbledon?

[4-6-2 Coast]

Just noticed today what looked like a Sourhern six-car 377 formation operating the Wimbledon-London Bridge service - one heading for Sutton this morning, and one arriving from that direction this evening. I have never seen anything other than 455 and 456 combinations on this route. Does anyone know if this a sign of change or just a temporary replacement?

 

[455driver]

There are 3 or 4 peak hour services formed of 377/3 stock at Wimbledon.

It is normal for them to be on there.

 

[A-driver]

They have run 377s in the peak for years to Wimbledon.

Funny thing is though that FCC won't clear 377s for the loop as the tight curves make them unsuitable for signal sighting with the horrible 377 postbox view cab layout. Southern don't seem to give it a second thought...

 

[cj_1985]

They have run 377s in the peak for years to Wimbledon.

Funny thing is though that FCC won't clear 377s for the loop as the tight curves make them unsuitable for signal sighting with the horrible 377 postbox view cab layout. Southern don't seem to give it a second thought...

I suppose that could theoretically change once the franchises are merged, depending on who wins the franchise...

 

[Class377/5]

They have run 377s in the peak for years to Wimbledon.

Funny thing is though that FCC won't clear 377s for the loop as the tight curves make them unsuitable for signal sighting with the horrible 377 postbox view cab layout. Southern don't seem to give it a second thought...

Not true. The 377 are cleared for the Loop and have operated around it once. In fact the 377/5 have the Loop programmed into the CIS, I've seen it myself.

For the record Southern sent a 12 car 377 around the loop when it was doing daytime commissioning of 377501.

Southern are timetabled to do one London Bridge - Wimbledon - Sutton - Mitcham - London Bridge 377 in AM peak and the verse in the PM with other services being 455. Prior to the 313 working for Southern it used to be an 8 car 377 (normally with at latest 1x 377/2).

 

[4-6-2 Coast]

Not true. The 377 are cleared for the Loop and have operated around it once. In fact the 377/5 have the Loop programmed into the CIS, I've seen it myself.

For the record Southern sent a 12 car 377 around the loop when it was doing daytime commissioning of 377501.

Southern are timetabled to do one London Bridge - Wimbledon - Sutton - Mitcham - London Bridge 377 in AM peak and the verse in the PM with other services being 455. Prior to the 313 working for Southern it used to be an 8 car 377 (normally with at latest 1x 377/2).

Thanks for the information - do you happen to know which timetables are booked for them?

Maybe I've just been looking at the wrong times but I swear I haven't seen one at Wimbledon since the spring...

 

[A-driver]

Not true. The 377 are cleared for the Loop and have operated around it once. In fact the 377/5 have the Loop programmed into the CIS, I've seen it myself.

For the record Southern sent a 12 car 377 around the loop when it was doing daytime commissioning of 377501.

Southern are timetabled to do one London Bridge - Wimbledon - Sutton - Mitcham - London Bridge 377 in AM peak and the verse in the PM with other services being 455. Prior to the 313 working for Southern it used to be an 8 car 377 (normally with at latest 1x 377/2).

Sorry but it's completely true. FCC won't run them in regular service round there as they have such poor signal sighting. I'm sure if short of stock they will send them but they wouldn't allow 377s to regularly run on the loop when introduced due to the poor visibility out of the cab. I remember driving 376s round there and there were signals you couldn't see from a 377 until past the magnet.

 

[Class377/5]

Sorry but it's completely true. FCC won't run them in regular service round there as they have such poor signal sighting. I'm sure if short of stock they will send them but they wouldn't allow 377s to regularly run on the loop when introduced due to the poor visibility out of the cab. I remember driving 376s round there and there were signals you couldn't see from a 377 until past the magnet.

You've changed your statement. You said not cleared. That different from us deciding to not to run them (which is also for other reasons).

They are two very different things and 377 are cleared for the loop. There is no restriction on running them around the loop AFAIK but I will check tomorrow if they have a signaling issue.

 

[A-driver]

Of course they are cleared in the technical sense of the word-otherwise southern couldn't run them. They are restricted at FCC from non emergency work as drivers flagged up poor sighting. This was also flagged up at southern but FCC took a different approach- probably because they were planned to be used on the mainline services anyway but I know with certainty that at the time the union refused to allow any to be booked on the route.

Cleared was a poor choice of word from me, I didn't mean it in the technical sense but not cleared by agreement with drivers.

 

[Class377/5]

Of course they are cleared in the technical sense of the word-otherwise southern couldn't run them. They are restricted at FCC from non emergency work as drivers flagged up poor sighting. This was also flagged up at southern but FCC took a different approach- probably because they were planned to be used on the mainline services anyway but I know with certainty that at the time the union refused to allow any to be booked on the route.

Cleared was a poor choice of word from me, I didn't mean it in the technical sense but not cleared by agreement with drivers.

Ah ok. Yes I get what you mean. It's the same situation with 377 and St Albans turn back sidings which has seen 377's once.

 

[Keith Jarrett]

Thanks for the information - do you happen to know which timetables are booked for them?

Maybe I've just been looking at the wrong times but I swear I haven't seen one at Wimbledon since the spring...

I regularly use 2O10, 0740 Sutton to Luton and pass Southern 377s waiting for the single road into Wimbledon every time - that must be the 08:03 arrival from London Bridge/08:04 return. The previous working is a 455. The only evening working that I see is the 1850 through Wimbledon which is regular 455

 

[D7666]

Doesn't Occams Razor apply ?

i.e. the simplest theory is the most likely.

There may well be signal sighting issues ... although they can't be that bad if SN work 377s round there ... and until this thread I had never heard there were any anywhere.

But surely the reason FCC don't use 377/5s there is a lot simpler. The FCC loop services are Standard Class only, as are the shared FCC-SET stoppers to Sevenoaks etc, FCC Brighton services and the shared FCC-SET main line trains need First Class.

FCC have just about the right split of combined 319/0+319/3 to cover the S.C. only diagrams and combined 319/4+319/2+377/5 to cover those needing F.C.

They can't run 377/5 on loop trains without compromising F.C. where it is advertised and where it is probably a franchise commitment.

So not only do they not do it, despite cleared to do so, they don't have any need to now nor make a business case to sort out whatever these alleged "signal sighting" issues are, if they exist at all.

Yes I know there are peak variations, and FCC's ability of getting the right 319 on the right train is, shall we say, not good based observation, so 319/4etc do appear on the loop and 8car 319/3etc do go to Brighton, but none of that disproves the fact loop trains are SC only and to diagram 377/5s there would be a level of lunacy that even FCC does not possess.

Further, FCC has diagrams that can only be 377s that 319s may not work.

FCC 12car Thameslink trains cannot be 319s. The oft quoted reason is FCC has no safety case for 12car 319s but there is no point getting one anyway since under AC the combination of pantograph and OLE limits 12car 319 to 75 mph but service needs 100 mph

Also the SET FCC workings to Rochester, Ashford, etc must be 377s as either SET drivers on those workings are from depots that do not sign 319s or certain routes are not cleared for 319s.

Add up the 4 12car Brighton 377 trains and the (at least) 3 8car Kent 377 trains and youve used up 18 of the total 26 FCC 377s.

It all means FCC has no practical use for 377s on the loop without compromising something else

--
Nick

 

[W230]

The oft quoted reason is FCC has no safety case for 12car 319s but there is no point getting one anyway since under AC the combination of pantograph and OLE limits 12car 319 to 75 mph but service needs 100 mph

At the risk of being pedantic, that's not quite correct. 12 car 319's could be used at 100mph on AC but only if all pantographs are of the 'new' Brecknill Willis type. It is the presence of a unit with a Stones-Faverley pan which limits the speed to 75mph unless one pan is isolated. There are only a handful of these older pans left now though.

However, as you correctly mention, there is the safety case to answer. 12 car 319's obviously don't have in cab monitors which would mean a lot of dispatchers would be required or another set of monitors on several platforms.

 

[D7666]

At the risk of being pedantic, that's not quite correct. 12 car 319's could be used at 100mph on AC but only if all pantographs are of the 'new' Stones-Faverley type. It is the presence of a unit with a Brecknill Willis pan which limits the speed to 75mph unless one pan is isolated. There are only a handful of these older pans left now though.

However, as you correctly mention, there is the safety case to answer. 12 car 319's obviously don't have in cab monitors which would mean a lot of dispatchers would be required or another set of monitors on several platforms.

Are you sure that applies to BedPan AC ?

What you state is the general rule.

However, I am under the impression both 319 pan types have this limit irrespective of what combination they are in a 12car train.

Unlike a lot of other AC, BedPan was a stand alone not linked to anywhere else project and pared down to BedPan restrictions and 12car 317s never entered into it.

Then 319s are set lower on their suspension (for the core tunnels) than equivant units like 321s, and this might have something to do with it.

I may be wrong but I am fairly certain I have seen - albeit not recently - NR or legacy BR documentation that limits even high speed pans *on 319s* to 75 mph in 12cars.


PS also I think you have your pan tpes names the wrong way round, it is the old pans which are S-F and the newer HS pans that are B-W.

--
Nick

 

[W230]

PS also I think you have your pan tpes names the wrong way round, it is the old pans which are S-F and the newer HS pans that are B-W.

You're right - I do! Teach me to go into pedant mode won't it! Annoyingly it didn't seem right when I typed it - best correct it now!

Those were the rules as we were told during traction training but as you suggest, there may be others. It was suggested that if we ever had to run a 12 car 31 (due to a fault etc) that we isolate one pan.

 

[D7666]

You're right - I do! Teach me to go into pedant mode won't it! Annoyingly it didn't seem right when I typed it - best correct it now!

Those were the rules as we were told during traction training but as you suggest, there may be others. It was suggested that if we ever had to run a 12 car 31 (due to a fault etc) that we isolate one pan.

getting the pans the wrong wat round did not affect my understanding of it

OK, I'm not a driver so I'll take your knowledge on 12car 319 !!

--
Nick

 

[Class377/5]

Doesn't Occams Razor apply ?

i.e. the simplest theory is the most likely.

There may well be signal sighting issues ... although they can't be that bad if SN work 377s round there ... and until this thread I had never heard there were any anywhere.

But surely the reason FCC don't use 377/5s there is a lot simpler. The FCC loop services are Standard Class only, as are the shared FCC-SET stoppers to Sevenoaks etc, FCC Brighton services and the shared FCC-SET main line trains need First Class.

FCC have just about the right split of combined 319/0+319/3 to cover the S.C. only diagrams and combined 319/4+319/2+377/5 to cover those needing F.C.

They can't run 377/5 on loop trains without compromising F.C. where it is advertised and where it is probably a franchise commitment.

So not only do they not do it, despite cleared to do so, they don't have any need to now nor make a business case to sort out whatever these alleged "signal sighting" issues are, if they exist at all.

Yes I know there are peak variations, and FCC's ability of getting the right 319 on the right train is, shall we say, not good based observation, so 319/4etc do appear on the loop and 8car 319/3etc do go to Brighton, but none of that disproves the fact loop trains are SC only and to diagram 377/5s there would be a level of lunacy that even FCC does not possess.

Further, FCC has diagrams that can only be 377s that 319s may not work.

FCC 12car Thameslink trains cannot be 319s. The oft quoted reason is FCC has no safety case for 12car 319s but there is no point getting one anyway since under AC the combination of pantograph and OLE limits 12car 319 to 75 mph but service needs 100 mph

Also the SET FCC workings to Rochester, Ashford, etc must be 377s as either SET drivers on those workings are from depots that do not sign 319s or certain routes are not cleared for 319s.

Add up the 4 12car Brighton 377 trains and the (at least) 3 8car Kent 377 trains and youve used up 18 of the total 26 FCC 377s.

It all means FCC has no practical use for 377s on the loop without compromising something else

--
Nick

There is no sighting issues. After speaking with those in the know there's nothing to stop a 377 round the loop bar agreement to avoid at all costs But as posted above the 377 fleet on TL is stretched to for fill all its commitments.

There is a single FCC service around (or rather goes to Sutton as its declassified on he way back) the loop with First Class, 06:14 Bedford - Sutton for the record. There is multiple joint services that have first class on then, they aren't all standard as stated above. That may change next Dec.

There is no diagram a 319 is barred from but the 12 car diagrams may b filled with an 8 car 319 at last restore with conditions attached when in service.

Don't forget that come 2018 every single Thameslink train will have first class abroad it so both the Catford and Wimbledon loops will see first class on trains but some trains it will be classified.

With the arrival of 6x 377/2 in May 14, the withdrawn of the Ashford/Rochester's north of Blackfriars in Dec 14 and the arrival of the 29x 387s between May and November 2015, the likely hood of a 377 around the loop for Thameslink runs is more likely to happen depending on how quickly they separate the three types of Thameslink services out diagram wise.

 

[A-driver]

There is no sighting issues. After speaking with those in the know there's nothing to stop a 377 round the loop bar agreement to avoid at all costs But as posted above the 377 fleet on TL is stretched to for fill all its commitments.

There is a single FCC service around (or rather goes to Sutton as its declassified on he way back) the loop with First Class, 06:14 Bedford - Sutton for the record. There is multiple joint services that have first class on then, they aren't all standard as stated above. That may change next Dec.

There is no diagram a 319 is barred from but the 12 car diagrams may b filled with an 8 car 319 at last restore with conditions attached when in service.

Don't forget that come 2018 every single Thameslink train will have first class abroad it so both the Catford and Wimbledon loops will see first class on trains but some trains it will be classified.

With the arrival of 6x 377/2 in May 14, the withdrawn of the Ashford/Rochester's north of Blackfriars in Dec 14 and the arrival of the 29x 387s between May and November 2015, the likely hood of a 377 around the loop for Thameslink runs is more likely to happen depending on how quickly they separate the three types of Thameslink services out diagram wise.

I can only disagree with you, unless it's changed in the last few years. I know factually that there were meeting between union and management regarding suitability on the loop with concerns raised over sighting. The union insisted that no 377 is booked round there unless as a last resort.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't forget that come 2018 every single Thameslink train will have first class abroad it so both the Catford and Wimbledon loops will see first class on trains but some trains it will be classified.

The ITT had it different. Has that definitely changed?

...Within the TTS and TIIS, the terms FLU and RLU are used to denote Full Length Unit and Reduced Length Unit respectively. FLUs are the nominal 240m units, also referred to as Type 1 Units, a detailed description of which can be found within the TTS.
RLUs are the nominal 160m units and may have either of two interior configurations, described in detail within the TTS as outer suburban and inner suburban, the principal difference between them being the provision of first class accommodation within outer suburban units only.

 

[Class377/5]

I can only disagree with you, unless it's changed in the last few years. I know factually that there were meeting between union and management regarding suitability on the loop with concerns raised over sighting. The union insisted that no 377 is booked round there unless as a last resort.

There no written rule in ops currently, but as you state it may have changed. If it exists in some form it won't survive franchise change anyway unless they de-clear a train around the Loop without a single change to anything physical (unlikely).

The ITT had it different. Has that definitely changed?

Yes, that's why the ITT asks for three sub classes yet only two have been announced. It was changed to do more with keeping things simple.

The soon to happen launch should officially announce things.

 

[A-driver]

There no written rule in ops currently, but as you state it may have changed. If it exists in some form it won't survive franchise change anyway unless they de-clear a train around the Loop without a single change to anything physical (unlikely).



Yes, that's why the ITT asks for three sub classes yet only two have been announced. It was changed to do more with keeping things simple.

The soon to happen launch should officially announce things.

It want be an issue in a franchise change as both operators are merging and the 'FCC' share of trains will be going over to 700 units.

 

[Class377/5]

It want be an issue in a franchise change as both operators are merging and the 'FCC' share of trains will be going over to 700 units.

I know that. However the merging means certain things will change from now (IE DOO on Horsham services) and the fact that one of the current franchise already run 377s around the loop (but may not from 2018) although all FCC Thameslink service will be 700's by 2018 but not before meaning stock may run to multiple locations and there is nothing to stop the winner bidder putting 377's on the Loop services especially as by this point the 377's won't have flagship status like now.

 

[A-driver]

I know that. However the merging means certain things will change from now (IE DOO on Horsham services) and the fact that one of the current franchise already run 377s around the loop (but may not from 2018) although all FCC Thameslink service will be 700's by 2018 but not before meaning stock may run to multiple locations and there is nothing to stop the winner bidder putting 377's on the Loop services especially as by this point the 377's won't have flagship status like now.

Indeed, although the unions are usually quick to get existing agreements honoured after new franchises.

 

[D7666]

Are you sure that applies to BedPan AC ?

What you state is the general rule.



--
Nick

You are indeed correct, and my apologies

The current** on line** Sectional Appendix states :

LN3201 - ST. PANCRAS TO TAPTON JN (VIA DERBY)
BEDFORD To ST. PANCRAS
AC EMUs 12 Car Formations. Because of the possible effect on the Overhead Line Equipment, all AC EMUs running in 12 car formations will be subject to a maximum speed restriction of 75mph until further notice. This restriction will not apply if ALL the EMUs in the 12 car formation are fitted with Brecknell Willis High Speed pantographs.
Dated: 30/08/08


** which may not necessarily actually be the most up to date version as I have found on previous occasions; however as the entry is dated 30/08/08 it is probably valid.


I wonder if I read this entry in a version pre-dating 2008 where it might not have had the last sentence ?

--
Nick

 

[W230]

I wonder if I read this entry in a version pre-dating 2008 where it might not have had the last sentence ?

No idea but that's the same version of the SA we were given during training. Although, as a incorrect post of mine in another thread has recently shown, they get out of date quickly!

 

[D7666]

No idea but that's the same version of the SA we were given during training. Although, as a incorrect post of mine in another thread has recently shown, they get out of date quickly!

And not necessarily fully correct either.

There was one version - maybe current I've not checked - stated that EMU permitted through Thameslink core included ... 373 .

--
Nick

 

[Class377/5]

And not necessarily fully correct either.

There was one version - maybe current I've not checked - stated that EMU permitted through Thameslink core included ... 373 .

--
Nick

Only EMU's cleared for the Core are 319/377 (/2 & /5 only IIRC). 376 are cleared to Smithfield. 375/465/466 and all other EMUs are bared north of Blackfriars platforms. 317 I don't think is cleared any more in the core for some reason.

Loco's cleared are 31/73 from memory.

(I need to sort out my online sectional appendix account out.)

 

[D7666]

Only EMU's cleared for the Core are 319/377 (/2 & /5 only IIRC). 376 are cleared to Smithfield. 375/465/466 and all other EMUs are bared north of Blackfriars platforms. 317 I don't think is cleared any more in the core for some reason.

Loco's cleared are 31/73 from memory.

(I need to sort out my online sectional appendix account out.)

Yes ... but I think you've missed the point ... the SA saying 373 is clearly an error. I was not suggesting they are allowed, because no way they would be, in any case they are AC only now ....

I actually think 325s would be allowed, but there is no traffic need, a 325 being no more than 319 parcels vans. I suspect the only reason they've not been cleared is paperwork, no-one done it as its not needed.

--
Nick

 

[JB25]

Is the sighting around the loop that bad? If the driver, drives as he should and has the required route knowledge then theoretically it shouldn't make a major difference should it?

 

[Class377/5]

Interestingly while I was digging around on info for the use on units on the Wimbledon Loop I came across an ops document give the PIS codes for the Loop as 0300 series towards Sutton and 0400 away.

The Sevenoaks route does not have any codes set as was planned that only 319s do that route.