377/5: other problems reflecting bad build quality?

[jon0844]

I boarded what I think was FCC 377 507 yesterday with a colleague who was trying out the service for the first time as an alternative way to get to Gillingham.

We sat by the disabled toilet and while we were at Farringdon (nice long dwell time as it changed power and 'rebooted') to head south, I jokingly opened the toilet door. The door struggled to open and stuck open. Oops.

I wondered if I'd messed it up by opening the door during the shutdown/restart - and we had to go in to press the close button and then run out. It then tried for a while to close, before giving up.

So, off the train went to Gillingham with the toilet door stuck open.. and I got off at Blackfriars and sniggered that he now had a nice view of the bog for the whole journey home!

He said today that the door started to close when it went around a bend, but got stuck further along.

Obviously this isn't a serious problem - but how can a brand new train have a door that doesn't close? I mean, it was sticking and making a noise when it was sliding open - and surely a sliding door is designed to cope with open/close movements and the need to work for many, many years!

It really makes me wonder about the quality of engineering at Bombardier. Are they rushing the trains out at ANY cost? FCC, and then Southern, are going to be left with trains that are going to cause problems all the time.

 

[westcoaster]

There might off been something stuck in the runners stopping it from shutting, also one off the small wheels on a runner might have come off.

 

[jon0844]

I looked at the runner (only the bottom, mind) and it was totally clean. In fact, the whole train was super-clean - but it could be a mini wheel I suppose. Poor show if they can come off that easily!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

It really makes me wonder about the quality of engineering at Bombardier. Are they rushing the trains out at ANY cost? FCC, and then Southern, are going to be left with trains that are going to cause problems all the time.

Honestly yes they are putting them in service as quick as possible so they can increase seating. Tho this is the first time I heard of a problem with the toilet doors. I know from personal experience the doors take awhile to close.

So far the 'fleet' of six trains has experienced some major issues. The first two were withdrawn just prior to the new timetable for welding checks then a few weeks ago they withdrew them because of a problem with the current return brushes. The fact the 7th unit has failed multiple times and been (until last week) unable to do a single nights testing. Tho now its been joined by the 8th unit it seems ok.

The build quality is bad as some of my flickr photos show. Panels not matching up, panels missing, inter car doors that open as any movement (mainly on 501). The first week the 377/5 came back into service the DOO equipment didn't work so they could stop at any station between Haywards Heath and Brighton.

Also the problems experienced with the track balise to open the doors at St Pancras where NR balise wont connect to Bombardiers trains Or the fact the current at Farringdon is too high meaning the softwear of the units refuses to take DC power until a recent software update.

And the trains are running 6 months late. Not great for Bombardier when they are bidding to replace all the trains run by FCC for the Thameslink Programme (which could lead to a run on order for Crossrail).

 

[jon0844]

I'd be making damn sure Bombardier don't make it through the pre-qualification stage!

FCC, then Southern, are going to have to run stock that will probably start to fall apart very much sooner than they should (well, they shouldn't fall apart at all - especially in a matter of days/weeks/months). How old is 377 507?

Tho this is the first time I heard of a problem with the toilet doors. I know from personal experience the doors take awhile to close.

Yeah, but not Farringdon to Gillingham and possibly still over 24 hours later if nobody has fixed it.

 

[thelem]

I have to say I have never been impressed with a disabled toilet, and fail to see the justification for them on a lot of trains (e.g. pendelino london-north I would support having a single disabled toilet between FC and standard, and having space for wheelchair passengers nearby. A 3 carriage train on a half hour journey from Brighton to Seaford does not need a disabled toilet that takes up something like 10 seats).

As a passenger they are not pleasent to use. Several times I have been sitting near the toilet on a 377 and either had to tell someone not to open the door on the disabled toilet because it is in use but not locked, and in some cases the door has even opened while the occupant was still busy.

On a 319/2 I have had a disabled door open on me while the 'door locked' light was showing and there was no one outside.

I have never had anyone walk in on me in a toilet with a manual lock, or seen it from the other side.

 

[jon0844]

Obviously we'll never get rid of a disabled toilet, but I wonder if we could simply return to an obvious manual locking system. Even if the door is motorised, does it mean the lock has to be? (You could have a sensor that prevents the door trying to open when it's locked - and the lock itself would have enough resistance to stop it opening).

If you look at a disabled toilet in any building, it won't have a button to lock it (which is of course simply stopping the door open buttons from working as against actually locking it). Many will have quite large and obvious handles or locks to use. These give reassurance and security, especially if a door mechanism fails because it hadn't actually closed fully and so it will time-out and reopen after 20-30 seconds when the poor user of the toilet has 'started'. You could also have a secondary sensor in the toilet so it knows when it's occupied.

All it takes is a bit of innovation. Then we also need standardisation, as many train doors/locks work in a different way - and the signage can also be confusing and inconsistent from one TOC to another. They can't change the essential signs (Fire exit etc) but seem to each have a totally different idea on how to produce and design other signs.

(As an aside; the 'passenger safety notices' that are on the newly reliveried NXEA trains have text that is far too small to be of use. Why have they got so much white space and small text when passengers are supposed to look at them. Is it that you have to climb over people to read it close up? Surely the idea is you can read them from a reasonable distance?)

 

[90019]

All it takes is a bit of innovation. Then we also need standardisation, as many train doors/locks work in a different way - and the signage can also be confusing and inconsistent from one TOC to another.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'm sure the blind passengers appreciate the Braille that invites them to check which light is illuminated...

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm sure the blind passengers appreciate the Braille that invites them to check which light is illuminated...

Incidentally which train did this come from?

 

[asylumxl]

A 3 carriage train on a half hour journey from Brighton to Seaford does not need a disabled toilet that takes up something like 10 seats).

I think a disabled user would disagree with you. 30 minutes isn't that short a time. Not everyone has great bowel control.

And with regards to Pendos, if a group of disabled users go on a day trip somewhere, they shouldn't have space for their wheelchairs, and they should all wait for one toilet? All for a few seats?

In a way that'd be quite degrading.

I think you're just aggy cos people keep intruding on you in the loo

 

[MCR247]

thank you, someone with some sense

 

[asylumxl]

thank you, someone with some sense

Me? If so, cheers . If someone else *hiss*

 

[MCR247]

I meant you, not everyone saying ditch disabled loos

 

[thelem]

I knew that would be a controvertial post, and should probably have qualified things more. Every decision has a cost and a benefit, and we can't afford to do everything we want to do.

I think a disabled user would disagree with you. 30 minutes isn't that short a time. Not everyone has great bowel control.

There are lots of situations where people find themselves away from toilets for more than 30 minutes, especially if you need a disabled toilet. I would imagine anyone with problems would already have coping strategies. The stations should have good toilet facilities that should be free to ticket holders.

And with regards to Pendos, if a group of disabled users go on a day trip somewhere, they shouldn't have space for their wheelchairs, and they should all wait for one toilet? All for a few seats?

I'm not sure what the internal layout of a Pendo is, but would a group of, say 6, wheelchair users be able to sit together? What about if all the wheelchair space was in one place, with some flip down seating for able bodied friends or when there are no wheelchair users on board.

It's quite common to have to wait for a toilet anyway - the 30 minute train I mentioned has one toliet for 3 carriages. Unless a pendo can accommodation more than 3 carriages worth of disabled users, then I don't see why it needs the additional toilets.

I would be interested to know how many occasions there were when two or more of the disabled toilets were being used by disabled passengers, and how many times there were no disabled passengers on board, but there were people standing who could have had a seat.
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I meant you, not everyone saying ditch disabled loos

I'm not saying ditch all disabled toilets. I'm saying go from 3 to 1 on a pendo, and provide at stations for short distance stopping services.

 

[jon0844]

That certainly looks quite sensible, although someone has highlighted the issue of telling which light is on!

And, I am not sure anyone has suggested getting rid of ALL disabled toilets. That would, for a start, be illegal.

 

[90019]

Incidentally which train did this come from?

It came from a ScotRail Turbostar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That certainly looks quite sensible, although someone has highlighted the issue of telling which light is on!

The point of it is about the braille telling blind people what the lights mean.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, but a blind person might not see the light! I think that was the point. Of course, there are different levels of blindness.

There is another way to do things, as used on some new traffic light crossings where there's a small knob underneath the 'press to cross' box that vibrates when the green man is showing.

What you need is innovation and common sense, and some initiative too. Perhaps getting people who have disabilities to come up with ideas and do proper testing, not just reading from a manual that says what you need to do in order to comply with regulations (which change and aren't always enough anyway).

 

[Electrostar]

Perhaps the lights get considerably warmer when switched on. So a blind person can feel over the braile and then the light?

 

[jon0844]

Yes, although the unlocked one will be warm as it was on already - and the locked one will take time to warm up (especially if it's an LED)!!

Let's remember too that the main reason we have to have a manual lock (rather than simply locking, as it does on Heathrow Express) is because people would go in, press close and run out - leaving a locked out toilet.

If we had a sensor that knew someone was inside, you could actually get rid of the lock idea completely. Press close, door locks. Press open, door unlocks.

 

[MCR247]

What if you were Victoria Beckham?

 

[90019]

Yes, but a blind person might not see the light! I think that was the point.

That's what I meant, and why I posted the photo in the first place.

 

[jon0844]

What if you were Victoria Beckham?

Does she eat enough to need to go to the toilet?

 

[MCR247]

True, didnt think about that
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I A 3 carriage train on a half hour journey from Brighton to Seaford does not need a disabled toilet that takes up something like 10 seats).

Why not?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

507 came into service on 11th May. So its two months old.

Intereswting the Javlin's have a manual door, in fact they seem to be like the Networkers loo rather than the Electrostars from the outside tho I didnt go it.

 

[90019]

A 3 carriage train on a half hour journey from Brighton to Seaford does not need a disabled toilet that takes up something like 10 seats)

Right, we'll remove all toilets from trains that you don't think need disabled toilets then.

If disabled people won't need to use the toilet, then obviously nobody else will.

 

[johnb]

And with regards to Pendos, if a group of disabled users go on a day trip somewhere, they shouldn't have space for their wheelchairs, and they should all wait for one toilet? All for a few seats?

That isn't the point - the reason Pendos have three accessible loos is because the rules require each class of travel to have access to an accessible loo. Pendo inter-carriage gangways are too narrow to get a wheelchair through and there aren't any mixed-class vehicles, so that means an accessible loo is needed for each class. And Virgin's original plans for Pendos and Voyagers was to run three classes.

 

[richa2002]

It's about having a balance between catering for the minority and the majority who want a seat.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Right, we'll remove all toilets from trains that you don't think need disabled toilets then.

If disabled people won't need to use the toilet, then obviously nobody else will.

It's about having a balance between catering for the minority and the majority who want a seat.

 

[thelem]

That isn't the point - the reason Pendos have three accessible loos is because the rules require each class of travel to have access to an accessible loo. Pendo inter-carriage gangways are too narrow to get a wheelchair through and there aren't any mixed-class vehicles, so that means an accessible loo is needed for each class. And Virgin's original plans for Pendos and Voyagers was to run three classes.

What the current rules require doesn't really matter for a hypothetical argument (although it matters a lot when ordering rolling stock).

377s don't have a disabled loo in the first class carriage, are their gangways wide enough?

What benefits would a wheelchair user get from travelling first class? Seat comfort, leg room and tables tend not to be an issue as disabled areas are normally just floor space, and any catering facilities could easily be extended into the end of the first standard class coach.

I can see an argument that friends of disabled people should be able to choose which class they sit in, but it doesn't seem worth removing seats and making people stand just for that.

 

[asylumxl]

A wheelchair takes up a few seats. Put seats there, and it's still a negligible increase in capacity.

How about catering for everyone, rather than "the majority" or "the minority"? Everyone can use the disabled toilets..what's the issue?.