321448 demonstrator

[badassunicorn]

The marker/tail lights are all LED on 321's anyway. I would have thought they'd have put a cyclops marker light above the cab like on a few of the 315's and the 317/7's, but I guess not.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought they were going to try longitudal seating in the 'Metro' layout?

Maybe that's what they are doing with the 317 demonstrator?

 

[jon0844]

I would have thought they'd have put a cyclops marker light above the cab like on a few of the 315's and the 317/7's, but I guess not.

Maybe that will come when/if the whole fleet is changed? For the demonstrator, it wouldn't be something the passengers would care about, or notice (or would notice, but not care about!) - and it might not need to have been done as part of other mechanical changes.

 

[nxea321446]

i will be going through doncaster on saturday so i will check the works to see if it is sat in the west yard if it hasn't gone back friday

 

[dk1]

The thing that puts me off the 317-322 family of trains most is that awful bang from the doors when passing other trains at speed. No matter how prepared i am it still makes me jump & makes the journey feel unpleasent.

Not sure if thats been resolved in any way with this upgrade.

 

[jon0844]

Surely there could be a relatively simple modification to reduce the impact of the movement of the doors when another train passes, or you go into a tunnel?

Another gripe is that I've been on 317s which must have gaps that mean air comes into the carriage from the space that the doors slide into. I've sat near the doors in first class on a 317/1 and it felt like a window was open.

 

[dk1]

Another gripe is that I've been on 317s which must have gaps that mean air comes into the carriage from the space that the doors slide into. I've sat near the doors in first class on a 317/1 and it felt like a window was open.

Its like that moment you walk into a busy restaurant & cant believe youve found a nice table only to realise why no one is sitting there

 

[Monty]

The thing that puts me off the 317-322 family of trains most is that awful bang from the doors when passing other trains at speed. No matter how prepared i am it still makes me jump & makes the journey feel unpleasent.

Not sure if thats been resolved in any way with this upgrade.

We have this problem on the 455s we work on, the doors do indeed rattle when a fast train passes us, however I find the worst culprit for the noise was the hopper windows. They would flap open and shut if the train passing us was going fast enough, stills frightens the life out of me to this day. You may find that with this 321 the noise may be reduced somewhat as it's had this style of window removed.

 

[northwichcat]

Another gripe is that I've been on 317s which must have gaps that mean air comes into the carriage from the space that the doors slide into. I've sat near the doors in first class on a 317/1 and it felt like a window was open.

I wonder how bad that is compared to the draught that gets around the doors on Pacers.

 

[southern442]

We have this problem on the 455s we work on, the doors do indeed rattle when a fast train passes us, however I find the worst culprit for the noise was the hopper windows. They would flap open and shut if the train passing us was going fast enough, stills frightens the life out of me to this day. You may find that with this 321 the noise may be reduced somewhat as it's had this style of window removed.

The 150's are the worst for that kind of thing.

 

[Monty]

The 150's are the worst for that kind of thing.

I would say it's a inherit problem with Mk3 based stock that use that type of hopper window. 321, 150 or 455 they all seem to suffer from it.

 

[jopsuk]

There was a 455 that had a set of "plug" type doors fitted as a trial, though it was converted back. Southern are certainly happy enough with modern plugs door for Metro operations (they use 377s), whilst the 321 and 317s work alongside, on the same routes, as 360s and 379s with plug doors.

But then full refit of the 317s and 321s with plug doors would be hilariously expensive- 145 units at just GA.
(there's then 25 at FCC, 7 at LM and 8 at Northern)

 

[starrymarkb]

I think the reason for the conversion was that it wasn't a success, in fact one of the vehicles had to be withdrawn as the conversion had weakened the bodyshell

 

[nlogax]

I think the reason for the conversion was that it wasn't a success, in fact one of the vehicles had to be withdrawn as the conversion had weakened the bodyshell

On the face of it, the conversion looked pretty good.

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class455_03.html

Didn't the vehicle act as a demo for the red SWT paint scheme before its withdrawal?

 

[Mikey C]

Aren't sliding doors more reliable, hence being used for the inner suburban 376s and Overground 378s? Obviously these aren't express stock, but I've never heard the doors on 376s bang, or the hopper windows flap around.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Vader 460>458 conversions were an engineering disaster, somehow they managed to get 8 weeks behind schedule only two weeks after the work commenced! Only now finishing months behind schedule aren they?

 

[Nym]

They proberbly assumed the 460s where to drawing

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They have changed the clusters though. They aren't the standard Wipac BR cluster, instead they have round front marker lights.

They have changed since the class was introduced, but those lights are not unique to 321448. Take a close look at some images on google.

 

[jon0844]

I think the reason for the conversion was that it wasn't a success, in fact one of the vehicles had to be withdrawn as the conversion had weakened the bodyshell

I wasn't suggesting changing the doors but rather a more moderate modification to stop the doors moving as much, or dampening the movement to reduce the noise.

 

[samuelmorris]

The 150's are the worst for that kind of thing.

But they don't pass at a closing speed of up to 200mph :P
A pair of fast trains passing on the GEML (and I imagine WC and GN too) makes a hell of a bang. I too hope that's changing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think it's just a problem with the MkIII bodyshell generally, certainly on the HSTs on the ECML there's a right bang when two trains pass. In first class it makes the cups jump about on the table.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I think it's just a problem with the MkIII bodyshell generally, certainly on the HSTs on the ECML there's a right bang when two trains pass. In first class it makes the cups jump about on the table.

That's normally because people forget to close the droplights

 

[samuelmorris]

I really haven't found this a problem on 'proper' Mk 3s at all, there's a physical jolt, which is to be expected with that sort of speed, but it's no real issue and it's not much worse than on a Mk 4.

 

[edwin_m]

You certainly get a shockwave in the body side of a Mk3 when it passes another train at speed. However I think this discussion is about the rattle/bang of the sliding doors on (particularly) Mk3 derived stock when the same happens.

Plug doors don't suffer from this and are also intrinsically less draughty, as they pull the door inwards against a seal to close it. Traditional sliding doors don't do this, but because the motion is all in one direction they are quicker and probably more reliable. However they do need door pockets in the body side or external runners.

Does more modern stock with sliding doors (I'm thinking 376, 378 and 395) suffer from banging doors? I would hope not as the IEP looks to be using sliding doors too, probably similar to those on the 395.

 

[TheJRB]

Does more modern stock with sliding doors (I'm thinking 376, 378 and 395) suffer from banging doors? I would hope not as the IEP looks to be using sliding doors too, probably similar to those on the 395.

I've certainly never heard it on a 395. In fact a noticeable trait of Javelins is how long the doors take to release so the impression I get is that they are very well sealed.

 

[jopsuk]

the doors on the 395s are pressure sealed, that stops them banging. Wouldn't be suitable for frequently stopping metro units.

 

[nxea321446]

321448 is currently sat in the wabtec yard at doncaster

 

[samuelmorris]

The doors take so long to open on a 395 it confuses the passengers - this would definitely be an issue on metro routes, but I can agree with there being no perceptible bang at full passing speed.

I agree that plug doors in general are slower than sliding doors, but timing the door close duration on a few units, 357s seem to take no longer than 321s, and 465s actually seem quicker. Both of these units are used on intensive commuter services, so don't seem to have an issue with reliability on high frequency stopping services (though admittedly many of the 357 unit failures that have caused me delay have been door related). I'm not sure the plug door argument really holds much sway with normal BR stock. I'd perhaps draw the line at Crossrail/London Overground, but anything with a typical inter-station duration over 2 minutes should be fine.

 

[nxea321446]

i can finally confirm that 321448 will be returning to ilford depot on 11th november

http://http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97556/2013/11/11/advanced

 

[samuelmorris]

Will keep a sharp eye on that schedule, I might be heading home past Ilford (albeit at 90 odd mph) tomorrow, so if it arrives I'll keep an eye out for it.