31x/32x intercompatibility?

[WestCountry]

There seem to be a lot of generally similar classes in the 31x and 32x series, but it would be a bit odd if none of them could work together.

I know 507s and 508s run together on Merseyrail, but could 313s? LO had a few 508s, but did they couple to the 313s?
Similarly. can 314s and 315s couple, or 313s with them? The only obvious difference between the former is an extra trailer.

I would guess that PEPs and Mk3-based stock are incompatible.
317/318 are again very similar, as are 320-322 - I guess those two groups are compatible within themselves, but the way GA and FCC keep their 317s and 321s separate suggests that they aren't with each other? Can 319s (and 325s?) work with either of those series?

 

[A-driver]

317/321 can certainly work together easily in passenger service. We don't on FCC but there is no restriction on doing so should a unit be subbed. I'm fairly certain it used to happen on another region (great eastern?)

319/313/365/321 & 317 can all work together for clearing the line to and 313s can work with 317/321 on ECS trips aswell, just not in passenger service. Only thing to bear in mind if you take an empty 317 with 313 behind you is that fleet get upset when you get up to 100...

 

[sprinterguy]

The class 325 postal units have drop-head buckeye couplers and traditional buffing gear rather than tightlock couplers, so are not compatible with other classes of multiple units at all.

As far as I know, all mark 3 derived EMUs from classes 317 to 322 inclusive (unsure about 319s, mind), are compatible with each other, and with class 323s as well. Scotrail regularly operate six carriage 318+320 formations, so I can't see that Greater Anglia wouldn't be able to perform similar feats with their comparable 317s and 321s.

 

[306024]

317/321 can certainly work together easily in passenger service. We don't on FCC but there is no restriction on doing so should a unit be subbed. I'm fairly certain it used to happen on another region (great eastern?)...

I thought it was out of Euston where 317/321 combinations were diagrammed in passenger service. Never been planned on the GE, as it is only comparatively recently that both fleets have been based at Ilford, and there simply isn't the necessity. On odd occasions, usually due to engineering work, a West Anglia ECS may be a 315/317 combo.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Can 319s (and 325s?) work with either of those series?

319s can couple to 317s, but I can't tell you the last time it happened (if ever!). When Thameslink Rail had 317s, they were diagrammed to work in pairs on weekdays to limit the chances of them being coupled to 319s (12 car trains weren't permitted in service back then).

319s could also 'mechanically' couple to the southern region's mk1 based slam-door stock 'to clear the line' (required two drivers), but, IIRC, they are not supposed to couple to 455s.

I doubt there has ever been reason to couple a 319 to any of the other 313-322 units, but it should be possible.

I imagine there is scope for coupling to a 325, but I seriously doubt that it has ever been tried.

 

[nlogax]

Some useful info here;

http://www.rssb.co.uk/RGS/Pages/MECHANICALANDELECTRICALCOUPLINGINDEX.aspx

 

[bronzeonion]

317/321 can certainly work together easily in passenger service. We don't on FCC but there is no restriction on doing so should a unit be subbed. I'm fairly certain it used to happen on another region (great eastern?)

319/313/365/321 & 317 can all work together for clearing the line to and 313s can work with 317/321 on ECS trips aswell, just not in passenger service. Only thing to bear in mind if you take an empty 317 with 313 behind you is that fleet get upset when you get up to 100...

I've heard from someone if you couple a 317 and a 365 up, it will work but the door alarms go off constantly on the 365, and a few other minor things happen that wouldn't normally happen. Is this true?

 

[WestCountry]

So it's actually much better than I thought.

I'm surprised to hear that PEPs and Mk3 units are compatible, and far more so about the 323s - don't those have a completely different power technology?

Still seems odd that I've never seen a GA or FCC mixed pair despite both of them having multiple 3xx fleets. Maybe I'm just unlucky. :roll:

 

[cj_1985]

319s can couple to 317s, but I can't tell you the last time it happened (if ever!). When Thameslink Rail had 317s, they were diagrammed to work in pairs on weekdays to limit the chances of them being coupled to 319s (12 car trains weren't permitted in service back then).

319s could also 'mechanically' couple to the southern region's mk1 based slam-door stock 'to clear the line' (required two drivers), but, IIRC, they are not supposed to couple to 455s.

I doubt there has ever been reason to couple a 319 to any of the other 313-322 units, but it should be possible.

I imagine there is scope for coupling to a 325, but I seriously doubt that it has ever been tried.

IIRC several years ago when Thameslink/FCC were using class 317s for use on the North section of the thameslink route (on the OHLE section) the 317s would be moved back to/from Hornsey Depot by top and tail 319s.

The route used escapes my memory at the moment... but it was a regular move.. for some reason I think the moves happened towards the end of the week... and the moves were carried out in this way to avoid the use of a loco and translator/barrier vehicles

 

[306024]

Still seems odd that I've never seen a GA or FCC mixed pair despite both of them having multiple 3xx fleets. Maybe I'm just unlucky. :roll:

On GA only Ilford drivers sign both types of traction, and they do not work West Anglia Services, which is why you won't have seen them combined unless there has been a failure.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

IIRC several years ago when Thameslink/FCC were hiring/sub hiring class 317s for use on the North section of the thameslink route (on the OHLE section) the 317s would be moved back to/from Hornsey Depot by top and tail 319s.

The route used escapes my memory at the moment... but it was a regular move.. for some reason I think the moves happened towards the end of the week... and the moves were carried out in this way to avoid the use of a loco and translator/barrier vehicles

The only moves I know of were 47s top and tail with translators (including the 'police' 47 on several occasions), operated by Freightliner, from either Bedford CS, Cauldwell Walk, or Cricklewood and going via the North London Line (the line between NLL and MML is not electrified).

AFAIK, the limit on length for 319/317 trains is 12 coaches, and moving one 317 with two 319s seems excessive. The easiest way for a 319 to get to Hornsey under it's own power is via Blackfriars and Clapham junction.

 

[A-driver]

I've heard from someone if you couple a 317 and a 365 up, it will work but the door alarms go off constantly on the 365, and a few other minor things happen that wouldn't normally happen. Is this true?

That sounds about right. They arnt electrically compatible so only used when shunting or clearing the line.

 

[Hophead]

IIRC several years ago when Thameslink/FCC were using class 317s for use on the North section of the thameslink route (on the OHLE section) the 317s would be moved back to/from Hornsey Depot by top and tail 319s.

The route used escapes my memory at the moment... but it was a regular move.. for some reason I think the moves happened towards the end of the week... and the moves were carried out in this way to avoid the use of a loco and translator/barrier vehicles

Believe it was through the Thameslink tunnels to Blackfriars - Loughborough Junction then onto the West London & North London Lines; can't recall the last bit, though - there's a couple of candidates.

 

[badassunicorn]

If a 315 is coupled to a 317 then as said, the door alarms go off constantly. As the doors on a 315 are electric and on a 317 air, they don't work. Its also not pleasant driving either with the other attached, as 315's have good acceleration with 2 powered coaches, and 317's only one, so its a jumpy ride!

 

[W230]

Believe it was through the Thameslink tunnels to Blackfriars - Loughborough Junction then onto the West London & North London Lines; can't recall the last bit, though - there's a couple of candidates.

Was chatting to a Freightliner driver at Cricklewood who was about to take a 319's for wheel turning at Hornsey and said they usually go through the tunnels then onto Elephant & Castle, Streatham Hill, Olympia, onto WLL to Willesden Jct and then the NLL before dropping on to the ECML at Hornsey.

As others have stated they used to be towed round from the MML onto the NLL via the Tottenham North curve but now traveling under their own power is preferred.

I imagine when the Canal Tunnels open this will all change (if units are even required to go from Cricklewood to Hornsey for wheel turning by then...)

 

[jopsuk]

Is the new depot officially still "Hornsey" depot? Or wll it be (given location) "Alexandra Palace" depot? Building work is proceeding rapidly there!

 

[A-driver]

Is the new depot officially still "Hornsey" depot? Or wll it be (given location) "Alexandra Palace" depot? Building work is proceeding rapidly there!

It's still closer to Hornsey than Ali Pali. It's all being called Hornsey in the plans.