319s and 313s - are there any spare?

[EM2]

Just a very quick question.
Are there any 319s and/or 313s off-lease, or are they all in operation?

 

[NSE]

As far as I'm aware they're all in service, I'm almost 99.9% sure none have been written off. Unless one or two are depot stricken Christmas Trees, I think they're all out and about.

 

[causton]

Isn't there one 313 used for ERTMS testing? Don't think there are any others though...

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_313#ERTMS_trials_on_the_Hertford_Loop sourced from RAIL magazine, so I believe it!

 

[EM2]

So all there is currently are the 317s from GA and the 460s from GatEx?

 

[NSE]

And Ex-SE's 508s?

 

[causton]

And aren't the 460s going to South West Trains to provide extra carriages anyway?

 

[EM2]

And Ex-SE's 508s?

Ah yes, forgot about them.
So, moving on slightly, is there any reason why FCC couldn't ask to take the 317s for the GN?

 

[ainsworth74]

And aren't the 460s going to South West Trains to provide extra carriages anyway?

Yeah they've started the work to convert some of them I think. Or at least they will be soon.

So, moving on slightly, is there any reason why FCC couldn't ask to take the 317s for the GN?

Well one of them is being used as a test bed for life extension work but I don't see why they couldn't take the rest on if they wanted.

 

[NSE]

Apart from some peak lengthening, I can't see what they'd be needed for. 321's sit around off peak along with 317's and a handful of 365's. I guess they'd be good for cover etc.

 

[Silvyelton]

Yep
460004 is at Doncaster Works for conversion for SWT
317722 is at Ilford as test bed for life extension

 

[jopsuk]

Apart from anything else, the 317/7s have a very low density seating layout- that's the only reason that they in particular were withdrawn when GA decided it could work with less units.
Certainly no 319s spare; after all the Thameslink operation has a long term lease of 377s because the 319 fleet isn't big enough

 

[158722]

Off-lease EMUs are as follows;
313121 ETRMS testing, currently at Wembley, ex-LOROL.
317708-710, 714, 719, 723, 729, 732 stored Eastleigh, ex-NXEA
317722 Ilford, prototype upgrade project, ex-NXEA
508201-211, stored Eastleigh, ex-SET
508212, Fire Training college
508301-303, stored Eastleigh, ex-LOROL
460s, as mentioned, destined for refurbishment/conversion for SWT

Essentially, 8 317s are available and something around 10 508s as several of the stored ones are apparently in a very poor state.

I find it hard to believe that there is not a case for electrifying Uckfield, with services being provided by 377s. These could be made available from Southern taking on the stored 508s and using them on Sussex services alongside the similar 313s or any of the inner London 'metro' services, for example. This would allow a large portion of the 171s to be moved away elsewhere in any number of Pacer replacement/capacity building cascade moves.

Same goes for the 317s; given the delays in the new Thameslink stock, surely there will be no 319s available for the Manchester-Wigan-Liverpool electrification projects, so why not get ahead of the game and send the 317s to Northern to start crew training and work alongside the 323s until there is a need for EMUs there? I'm fairly sure there are still a few under the wires services worked by DMUs, such as the odd Hazel Grove turn, which could free up a Pacer or two, until 2013/14 when the 8 (or 9) 317s would be enough to cover the Manchester Airport-Liverpool-Warrington/Wigan services via Chat Moss.

 

[jopsuk]

The 317/7s especially need a new interior before going to Northern; that's rather what the one that isn't available is away for.
(though as an alternative, I'd look to putting an interior similar to the FCC ones in, send them to FCC to displace 321s, which lose the 1st, to join the existing 321/322 fleet- gives Northern a more uniform fleet)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The 317/7s especially need a new interior before going to Northern; that's rather what the one that isn't available is away for.
(though as an alternative, I'd look to putting an interior similar to the FCC ones in, send them to FCC to displace 321s, which lose the 1st, to join the existing 321/322 fleet- gives Northern a more uniform fleet)

The only reason the 321s might benefit Northern is for acquisition of spare parts, the 321/322s currently used are based at Neville Hill and the units for the Northwest electrification will be at Allerton. Crew and maintenance staff will need training on whichever type of unit is used.

It would probably be less costly (given the apparent short term need of the units) to send the 317s up north.

I was also of the impression 317722 was being given new electrical gubbins to test.

 

[50047]

I was also of the impression 317722 was being given new electrical gubbins to test.

Correct. Completely new traction package including AC traction motors. Will eventually be off to Derby for testing
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same goes for the 317s; given the delays in the new Thameslink stock, surely there will be no 319s available for the Manchester-Wigan-Liverpool electrification projects, so why not get ahead of the game and send the 317s to Northern to start crew training and work alongside the 323s until there is a need for EMUs there? I'm fairly sure there are still a few under the wires services worked by DMUs, such as the odd Hazel Grove turn, which could free up a Pacer or two, until 2013/14 when the 8 (or 9) 317s would be enough to cover the Manchester Airport-Liverpool-Warrington/Wigan services via Chat Moss.

Hmmmmmmm..... Watch this space I think.

Whilst we are on this subject, is Allerton depot wired anyone?

 

[phil281]

Would it not be an idea to send the 317's to Manchester to suppliment the 323's allowing those dmu's working under the wires to add capacity elsewhere in the area?

 

[158722]

Would it not be an idea to send the 317's to Manchester to suppliment the 323's allowing those dmu's working under the wires to add capacity elsewhere in the area?

As I just suggested on the previous page...

This plus crew training, etc in advance of more electric services once Chat Moss is wired.

Surprised in some way, that wiring to Rose Hill Marple and New Mills Central hasn't been mentioned yet. A nice almost self-enclosed series of services along with Hadfield/Glossop worked by 323s with the newly arriving 317s/319s/321s/whatever taking over Crewe & Stockport workings which become Crewe/Stockport-Wigan/Liverpool through services from 2014.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Whilst we are on this subject, is Allerton depot wired anyone?

Aside from the depot building (which doesn't look much longer than a 156!) and maybe a line or two (shunt neck?) at the Liverpool end, yes, it is wired throughout.

 

[Aictos]

Apart from anything else, the 317/7s have a very low density seating layout- that's the only reason that they in particular were withdrawn when GA decided it could work with less units.
Certainly no 319s spare; after all the Thameslink operation has a long term lease of 377s because the 319 fleet isn't big enough

The only FCC services the 317/7s would be useful on are the Cambridge Cruisers or the Kings Lynns - used on other services would be madness!!!

 

[Skimble19]

Back in the days of WAGN they were used on Peterborough fast services every so often.. No issues with them on there, aside from the massive amount of first class - declassify it (its barely used anyway!) and there's not really an issue.

 

[Drsatan]

I find it hard to believe that there is not a case for electrifying Uckfield, with services being provided by 377s. These could be made available from Southern taking on the stored 508s and using them on Sussex services alongside the similar 313s or any of the inner London 'metro' services, for example. This would allow a large portion of the 171s to be moved away elsewhere in any number of Pacer replacement/capacity building cascade moves.

If the Uckfield branch is ever electrified I imagine there will be enough 377s released by Thameslink to cover any diagrams. It would be nice to see the stored 508s back in service but I doubt Southern would want them since they're apparently suffering very badly from corrosion, and cannot work in multiple with 456s and 455s since they use 'old-school' Dellner couplings (Dellner couplings fitted to 456s and 455s use solid-state electronics).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... and cannot work in multiple with 456s and 455s since they use 'old-school' Dellner couplings (Dellner couplings fitted to 456s and 455s use solid-state electronics).

I presume you mean Tightlock couplers, rather than Dellner couplers.

 

[50047]

Aside from the depot building (which doesn't look much longer than a 156!) and maybe a line or two (shunt neck?) at the Liverpool end, yes, it is wired throughout.

Thank you. That explains a rather strange request that came by my desk recently.

 

[lewisf]

If the Uckfield branch is ever electrified I imagine there will be enough 377s released by Thameslink to cover any diagrams. It would be nice to see the stored 508s back in service but I doubt Southern would want them since they're apparently suffering very badly from corrosion, and cannot work in multiple with 456s and 455s since they use 'old-school' Dellner couplings (Dellner couplings fitted to 456s and 455s use solid-state electronics).

And in any case, the couplings in 508s are fully automatic whereas the couplings in 455s & 456s are mechanical only with jumper cables.

 

[A-driver]

508s and 313s can not be used in the suburban area without Infastructure upgrades. That is why they went to the coast when southern introduced them as the costal roads are non DOO.

The issue is actually that there is no drop light window on the non driver side so at certain self dispatch stations on the right hand side with no dispatch equipment (eg queens road) or at stations with monitors on the non drivers side (south bermondsay and Peckham rye) the driver is unable to stick his head out the window to look back or see the monitors like they can on 455&6 stock. Otherwise I would imagen that at least post Olympics the 313s would be used on the inner London work and the 377/3s on the coast.