LOL The Irony
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319431 on fire at St Helens (04/08)
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LOL The Irony
Established Member
Well, since it happened yesterday, It'll be a while (FB & RAIB investigations would have to take place first). Since it happened in the toilet area, near the roof, most likely electrical.
Class455
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Couldn't they use one of the spare 321 TSO's in storage if the carriage was a write off?
roversfan2001
Established Member
Well, given it was a service to Wigan...was it Will Grigg?
tsr
Established Member
I suspect you are thinking of 377442, which caught fire at Eastbourne a few months back. (The MOS coach which caught fire has been removed from the unit, making it a temporary /3 series.)
The after-effects of that fire included a substantial swathe of the network having checks on hand dryer wiring. The resulting precautions mean that most 377s and 171s are still without working dryers.
The newspaper photos show the damage near the doors but towards the middle of the car. Which sounds like something behind the high level panel above the seats that back on to the vestibule. This would also match the "it started in the luggage rack" eye witness reports.
Silverlink
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but I seen on here the class 321 trailers are getting scraped
I believe all the 319s are Porterbrook owned whilst the 321s are eversholt so even if it is technically possible to mix and match sets its likely not to happen. Also as a 319 is limited to operating as 4 car units whilst 321 can run as 3 there must be differences between equipment on the TSO between the classes.there are plenty of 319 TSO or even sets sitting spare if the cost is too high to repair it but nobody even knows that yet.
childwallblues
Established Member
From what I have been told 319431 was dragged back to Allerton top and tailed by a pair of 319s with a run round at Edge Hill.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
It was in response to a comment from someone from the GWR area who said that the unit caught fire in protest at having the Northern livery applied to it and had an emoji at the end.
hairyhandedfool
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It's not impossible, but it's unlikely. There are currently quite a few 319s without homes. It'd be easier to replace the vehicle with another 319 vehicle.
The non-driving trailer of the 319 carries equipment vital to the operation of the train. A 321 TSO does not.
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LOL The Irony
Established Member
Why don't Northern just order 387's and more 331's? Would solve the problem of the already (as just proven) unreliable 319's. 5 more 3 car 331's to cover the shortfall in units after the 323's go and 387's to replace the 32 319's.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
£££££. They will have signed up to pay for the 319s over the franchise term so even if new units are cheaper to lease it would still cost them more overall.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
387s are no longer the latest design and no new ones will be built so obtaining 387s would rely on a leasing company agreeing to lease ones which have already been ordered.
There won't be a shortfall in units when the 323s go. The 323s being returned on 1st Dec 2019 was agreed so that Northern wouldn't finish up short of EMUs as some 331s will be in service by then. 5 x 319s and the 321s and 322s will be returned in 2020 when the final batch of 331s are in service. The other 27 x 319s are leased until 2025.
SpacePhoenix
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The Electrostars (387s) are a discontinued product, they've been replaced as the product that Bombardier offer with Aventras. afaik no TOC has any remaining options for follow-on orders
Why would Northern order 387's anyway if they wanted more new units they would more likely order more 331's. But has already been said the franchise cost is based on a mixture of running 331's and 319's.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
The 379's are becoming surplus in 2019. Maybe use those?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
They are becoming surplus because the leasing company charges an eye watering amount. Until the leasing company lowers their charges they'll be little interest in them from any operator.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
Well, only solution then is Nationalisation and a (Forgive me farther, for I am about to sin) B̶e̶e̶c̶h̶i̶n̶g̶-̶e̶s̶q̶u̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶y̶l̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶a̶p̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶2̶0̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶ ̶a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶.̶ Well maybe just nationlisation.
If 319431 was 'top and tailed' from St Helens Central to Allerton (and tracking records indicate that it was), why would there need to be a 'run round' at Edge Hill? Would it not be solely the driver who would have needed to 'run round'?
BTW, since the ensemble apparently took 37 minutes from departing St Helens Central to passing Huyton, I would guess that the routing was via Ince Moss Junction and Newton-le-Willows, which I suppose would have been the only sensible route anyway.
Departure from SNH was apparently at 2225. The lead unit seems to have been that off the 1832 Lime Street to Wigan, which would normally return to Liverpool on the back of the 2003 Wigan to Lime Street. It apparently ran as 1Z99, 2010 Wigan North Western to St Helens Central, express passenger, calling only at Ince Moss Junction! I have to doubt that it ran in public service, given that the 2003 had departed Wigan only a few minutes earlier.
The rear unit was looks to have been off the 1836 Wigan to Lime Street, which would normally then have gone ECS to Allerton.
From the St Helens Star article..
The train involved, the 1400 ex-Lime Street, was due St Helens Central at 1428 and seemingly arrived fractionally before that time. Twenty-seven minutes may appear a long time to take to get round to calling the Fire Service, but it may not have been immediately apparent that outside help was needed.
DJH1971
Established Member
Wonder if this will be going back to Wolverton?
From an operational viewpoint, the consequences of the incident appear to have been as follows.
1400 Lime Street - Wigan (operated by 319431) terminated at St Helens Central.
1503 Wigan - Lime Street )
1600 Lime Street - Wigan ) All cancelled - these journeys would
1703 Wigan - Lime Street ) have been worked by 319431.
1800 Lime Street - Preston )
The next journey on the diagram would have been 2242 Preston - Liverpool, this apparently operated okay, a unit to operate it may have been sent with the 2030 ex-Lime Street, but it isn't showing on tracking.
The 1431 service Wigan to Lime Street was held for 73 minutes somewhere between Garswood and St Helens Central. It was given the okay to go at c.1555-1600 and continued its journey, but I would say that it skipped the stops at Roby and Wavertree Technology Park, at least.
1532 Lime Street - Wigan ) Cancelled - these journeys would have been
1631 Wigan -Lime Street ) operated by the unit off the 1431 ex-Wigan
Other journeys cancelled were 1403 South Parkway - Preston (from Lime Street), 1530 Preston - South Parkway (throughout), and 1704 South Parkway - Preston (as far as Lime Street). However, I have to doubt that these cancellations were a consequence of the fire at St Helens. The reason given for the cancellations was 'a problem with the train', and it should have left Lime Street at 1428, i.e. before the 1400 Wigan had arrived at St Helens Central.
1432 Lime Street - Wigan )
1500 Lime Street - Wigan )
1502 South Parkway - Preston )
1604 South Parkway - Preston )
1632 Lime Street - Wigan )
1700 Lime Street - Wigan )
1717 Lime Street - Preston ) All diverted via Newton-le-Willows.
1732 Lime Street - Preston )
1745 Lime Street - Wigan )
1832 Lime Street - Wigan )
1900 Lime Street - Wigan )
1930 Lime Street - Preston )
1947 Lime Street - Wigan )
2030 Lime Street - Preston )
2047 Lime Street - Wigan )
2147 Lime Street - Preston )
There was only one later northbound journey scheduled via St Helens (2302 Lime Street - Preston), and that apparently ran normally.
1430 Preston - South Parkway ) Diverted via Newton-le-Willows.
1531 Wigan - Lime Street )
The 1603 Wigan - Lime Street, and all later trains (other than those shown above as cancelled) operated via the normal route through St Helens Central.
Cancellations earlier in the day were 0716 Lime Street - Manchester Airport & 0840 return; 0802 Manchester Victoria - Lime Street; and 1132 Lime Street - Wigan & 1231 return.
1400 Lime Street - Wigan (operated by 319431) terminated at St Helens Central.
1503 Wigan - Lime Street )
1600 Lime Street - Wigan ) All cancelled - these journeys would
1703 Wigan - Lime Street ) have been worked by 319431.
1800 Lime Street - Preston )
The next journey on the diagram would have been 2242 Preston - Liverpool, this apparently operated okay, a unit to operate it may have been sent with the 2030 ex-Lime Street, but it isn't showing on tracking.
The 1431 service Wigan to Lime Street was held for 73 minutes somewhere between Garswood and St Helens Central. It was given the okay to go at c.1555-1600 and continued its journey, but I would say that it skipped the stops at Roby and Wavertree Technology Park, at least.
1532 Lime Street - Wigan ) Cancelled - these journeys would have been
1631 Wigan -Lime Street ) operated by the unit off the 1431 ex-Wigan
Other journeys cancelled were 1403 South Parkway - Preston (from Lime Street), 1530 Preston - South Parkway (throughout), and 1704 South Parkway - Preston (as far as Lime Street). However, I have to doubt that these cancellations were a consequence of the fire at St Helens. The reason given for the cancellations was 'a problem with the train', and it should have left Lime Street at 1428, i.e. before the 1400 Wigan had arrived at St Helens Central.
1432 Lime Street - Wigan )
1500 Lime Street - Wigan )
1502 South Parkway - Preston )
1604 South Parkway - Preston )
1632 Lime Street - Wigan )
1700 Lime Street - Wigan )
1717 Lime Street - Preston ) All diverted via Newton-le-Willows.
1732 Lime Street - Preston )
1745 Lime Street - Wigan )
1832 Lime Street - Wigan )
1900 Lime Street - Wigan )
1930 Lime Street - Preston )
1947 Lime Street - Wigan )
2030 Lime Street - Preston )
2047 Lime Street - Wigan )
2147 Lime Street - Preston )
There was only one later northbound journey scheduled via St Helens (2302 Lime Street - Preston), and that apparently ran normally.
1430 Preston - South Parkway ) Diverted via Newton-le-Willows.
1531 Wigan - Lime Street )
The 1603 Wigan - Lime Street, and all later trains (other than those shown above as cancelled) operated via the normal route through St Helens Central.
Cancellations earlier in the day were 0716 Lime Street - Manchester Airport & 0840 return; 0802 Manchester Victoria - Lime Street; and 1132 Lime Street - Wigan & 1231 return.
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Where will Northern's existing 321 and 322 units go? There seem to be a lot of renewals due, and very little new demand (with so many electrification schemes being ^canned^).
northwichcat
Veteran Member
No where yet. Arriva decided Yorkshire needed 6 car EMUs on some services long before the Anglia, SWT and LM franchises were let, so the ROSCOs knew those 8 x 32xs were off-lease before all the other new EMU orders were agreed.
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