317/7 on GEML

[Broadside]

Hi all, first post!

There was a "Tweet the manager" session with NXEA's Train Planning/Peformance managers earlier this evening. One question I raised concerned the use of 317/7 stock on peak service on the GEML (specifically the 0629 IPS - LST) and the overcrowding caused by the 2+2 seating (all other services apart from the MK3s are 3+2). In addition these sets appear to have far too much first class accomodation carrying nothing but air - I beleive these trains were previously used on Stansted Express service where it would have made more sense.
The response I got was that "there will be some changes made in Feb (to class 321's) so this should balance out the 1st/standard class capacity" to which I asked if this meant the service would be replaced with a 321. The answer "in a word yes - changes on Feb 5th".

So, where are these extra 321s coming from? I thought NXEA (and going forward Abellio) had only surplus 317s since the arrival of the 379s on WA?

Cheers

 

[swt_passenger]

Higher utilisation of the existing fleet.

Bringing back into use all the different depot's various problem units that were assumed to be unfixable...

 

[387star]

London Midland will presumably give up most of theirs at some point

 

[swt_passenger]

London Midland will presumably give up most of theirs at some point

They've stated on their website that they definitely won't be - they've already tried to replace them with new build 350s and been told no by DfT.

 

[RobShipway]

They've stated on their website that they definitely won't be - they've already tried to replace them with new build 350s and been told no by DfT.

I thought both London Midland and First Trans Penine where getting new build 350's by March 2013?

 

[jopsuk]

They are, but the LM 350s are not to replace the 321s. Their micro fleet becomes an increasingly daft use of stock.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Aren't LMs 321s to be replaced by the 350s that TPE are having temporarily for Manchester-Scotland services? (when TPE should be getting new stock for their various electric services)

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't LMs 321s to be replaced by the 350s that TPE are having temporarily for Manchester-Scotland services? (when TPE should be getting new stock for their various electric services)

The TPE 350/3s being a temporary arrangement has never been officially confirmed though, has it? It's been mentioned routinely in rail forums, and apparently as a fact - but I've never seen anything that supports the suggestion yet from DfT.

However the OP's question is about where Abellio capacity comes from in February, not what might or might not happen in 5 or 6 years time. The current order for LM additional 350s definitely doesn't replace the 321s, and the next potential order for LM 350s is to do with their 110 mph project, to allow faster trains to run in the peak as well as the offpeak.

 

[SprinterMan]

Hi all, first post!

There was a "Tweet the manager" session with NXEA's Train Planning/Peformance managers earlier this evening. One question I raised concerned the use of 317/7 stock on peak service on the GEML (specifically the 0629 IPS - LST) and the overcrowding caused by the 2+2 seating (all other services apart from the MK3s are 3+2). In addition these sets appear to have far too much first class accomodation carrying nothing but air - I beleive these trains were previously used on Stansted Express service where it would have made more sense.
The response I got was that "there will be some changes made in Feb (to class 321's) so this should balance out the 1st/standard class capacity" to which I asked if this meant the service would be replaced with a 321. The answer "in a word yes - changes on Feb 5th".

So, where are these extra 321s coming from? I thought NXEA (and going forward Abellio) had only surplus 317s since the arrival of the 379s on WA?

Cheers

Word on the street is that the Class 317/7s are going off-lease as soon as Abellio take over. This is to save money on maintenance and leasing. The extra 321s will be made available by improved fleet availiablity & utilisation. Having now been on a 317/7 I must say I am not a fan of the things. The seats are very comfortable and the big tables are nice, but they only have a few more standard class seats than a 156. They are the worst riding things I have ever been on; they ride far worse than a 321 (I have never been on a pacer and I presume these are worse). By far their worst fault is the inter-carriage gangway doors. They open outwards, rather than sliding. They rarely work, and when they do they hit the person in the seat next to them with some force. Sometimes they are stuck shut, sometimes they are stuck open. I really wanted to like the 317/7s but they are really just a very poor alternative to the 379 and not suited to the job that NXEA now uses them for, much like the 170s when they ran through to London.

 

[MCR247]

The TPE 350/3s being a temporary arrangement has never been officially confirmed though, has it? It's been mentioned routinely in rail forums, and apparently as a fact - but I've never seen anything that supports the suggestion yet from DfT.

However the OP's question is about where Abellio capacity comes from in February, not what might or might not happen in 5 or 6 years time. The current order for LM additional 350s definitely doesn't replace the 321s, and the next potential order for LM 350s is to do with their 110 mph project, to allow faster trains to run in the peak as well as the offpeak.

True, could we have another 377/5 case on our hands?

 

[Broadside]

Word on the street is that the Class 317/7s are going off-lease as soon as Abellio take over. This is to save money on maintenance and leasing. The extra 321s will be made available by improved fleet availiablity & utilisation. Having now been on a 317/7 I must say I am not a fan of the things. The seats are very comfortable and the big tables are nice, but they only have a few more standard class seats than a 156. They are the worst riding things I have ever been on; they ride far worse than a 321 (I have never been on a pacer and I presume these are worse). By far their worst fault is the inter-carriage gangway doors. They open outwards, rather than sliding. They rarely work, and when they do they hit the person in the seat next to them with some force. Sometimes they are stuck shut, sometimes they are stuck open. I really wanted to like the 317/7s but they are really just a very poor alternative to the 379 and not suited to the job that NXEA now uses them for, much like the 170s when they ran through to London.

Thanks for that - you summed up my thoughts on the things exactly! The occasions I've taken a 317 the inter-carriage doors have been stuck open - I just assumed that's how they were.
Tonight 2 321 peak services from LST were short formed (8v12) I'm guessing so the two freed up units could cover for a 90/MK3 set on the 1810 to Norwich which was being advertised as 8 carriages only with limited first class and no catering. If Abellio are off-leasing the 317s then overall availabilty of the NXEA/Greater Anglia fleet really has to improve.

Cheers.

 

[IanXC]

The TPE 350/3s being a temporary arrangement has never been officially confirmed though, has it? It's been mentioned routinely in rail forums, and apparently as a fact - but I've never seen anything that supports the suggestion yet from DfT.

However the OP's question is about where Abellio capacity comes from in February, not what might or might not happen in 5 or 6 years time. The current order for LM additional 350s definitely doesn't replace the 321s, and the next potential order for LM 350s is to do with their 110 mph project, to allow faster trains to run in the peak as well as the offpeak.

The problem is its a logical solution and we all know what happens when we use logic!

I'd like to see the 350/3 from TPE go to LM, then their 7 321s added to Northern's east side EMU fleet for local services from the TPE and Hull electrifications.

 

[colchesterken]

I only ever go to london off peak these days on my OAP ticket but when I used to commute I liked to get the 309 s with their 2+2 seating
I thought the 2+2 317 s where a step foward as a long run on a x3 seat can be a bit too close for comfort as a 17 stone who likes to read a train mag it is too cramped
I am sorry it is not working out, they could relieve the overcrowing by using some of the trains thay have promised to return..that is of course a train fans solution not an accountants.Grrrrr

 

[dk1]

Tonight 2 321 peak services from LST were short formed (8v12) I'm guessing so the two freed up units could cover for a 90/MK3 set on the 1810 to Norwich which was being advertised as 8 carriages only with limited first class and no catering. If Abellio are off-leasing the 317s then overall availabilty of the NXEA/Greater Anglia fleet really has to improve.

Cheers.

Cant do much about a fatality involving a loco-hauled set. Rob Peter to pay Paul by short forming to run every service or simply cancel.

 

[SprinterMan]

I only ever go to london off peak these days on my OAP ticket but when I used to commute I liked to get the 309 s with their 2+2 seating
I thought the 2+2 317 s where a step foward as a long run on a x3 seat can be a bit too close for comfort as a 17 stone who likes to read a train mag it is too cramped
I am sorry it is not working out, they could relieve the overcrowing by using some of the trains thay have promised to return..that is of course a train fans solution not an accountants.Grrrrr

The only run that is long enough to warrant the 2+2 seating is the one Norwich return train they do per day, and after they go abellio may use 317/6s on this which have 2+2 seats. 360s or 317/8s would be better than a 321 but 317/7s lack the capacity to be a good commuter train and the iffy rebuild counts against them. I do know what you mean about 3+2 seats though, 321s capacity may be a godsend at peak times but it can get a little close for comfort.

 

[Pumbaa]

The TPE 350/3s being a temporary arrangement has never been officially confirmed though, has it? It's been mentioned routinely in rail forums, and apparently as a fact - but I've never seen anything that supports the suggestion yet from DfT.

However the OP's question is about where Abellio capacity comes from in February, not what might or might not happen in 5 or 6 years time. The current order for LM additional 350s definitely doesn't replace the 321s, and the next potential order for LM 350s is to do with their 110 mph project, to allow faster trains to run in the peak as well as the offpeak.

Still awaiting sign off. The clock is ticking...

LM are *still* trying to table extra 350s to get rid of the 321s. They have cut the diagrams to the bone, deliberately illustrating what a waste they are. DfT then turned round and said "ah, but with Project 110, you save 3 units", LM replied "you didn't want us to complete Project 110". All an utter balls-up.

My opinion is that we are going to miss the sign-off date, Siemens will shut up shop and that's that. Well done to all parties concerned.