3-3-1 Buzzer Code

[JonnyH]

Hi guys

Just a curiosity question that I hope somebody knows the answer to....

I was recently on a GWR HST to Penzance and noticed a buzzer code I hadn't heard before. It was 3 pause, 3 pause, 1 when the train stopped at stations before the doors were unlocked, so I'm assuming it was the driver giving the TM permission to open the doors?

Just wanted to ask if anybody could confirm that as I have never heard it on other HST's and wondered if any other companies use that code at all?

Cheers

Jonny

 

[me123]

I found this posted on this very forum some ten years(!) ago.

1: Stop
2: Ready to Start
3: Set Back
4: Slow Down
5: Driver/Guard leaving the train
6: Draw Forward
9: Police assistance required

1-2: Close Doors
2-2: Do Not Open Doors
3-1: Lock Central Door Locking
3-3: Driver/Guard requited to attend telephone (or Loudaphone etc etc)
3-3-1: Release Central Door Locking.

3-2-1 Testing Doors

Each code should be repeated by the driver, with the exception of 3-2-1.

If that's (still) correct, than you are indeed right as to the purpose of the buzzer code you heard.

 

[JonnyH]

I found this posted on this very forum some ten years(!) ago.



If that's (still) correct, than you are indeed right as to the purpose of the buzzer code you heard.

Thanks for that mate!

I thought it was likely to be for that purpose, just thought it odd that I haven't heard it (or at least haven't noticed it) before on any HST's.

Curious if it is something that still gets used nationwide or is it only GWR who use it?

 

[Johncleesefan]

Not normally used except after having coupled 2 units together. Perhaps there was a fault which required the use only I cant think what fault would necessitate the use of this code

 

[JonnyH]

Thanks Johncleesefan. Would be interesting to know what the reason was for it being used that day but I guess I will never know :-/

 

[Adam0984]

Could it be that the train is stopped in the correct position for the carriages platforms at short platforms

 

[185]

I used six some years ago at Leeds on many occasions (eg on the back / 16B with a yellow on the intermediate, with a red showing on the end of what was 16A) and twice drivers didn't know what six was for, with one saying he thought it was technically wrong. Used it (well, with drivers I liked) as a courtesy - a reminder buzzer not to go sailing off the end past the red.

 

[Crossover]

I used six some years ago at Leeds on many occasions (eg on the back / 16B with a yellow on the intermediate, with a red showing on the end of what was 16A) and twice drivers didn't know what six was for, with one saying he thought it was technically wrong. Used it (well, with drivers I liked) as a courtesy - a reminder buzzer not to go sailing off the end past the red.

Had similar once on a 319 at Newton-le-Willows as the next signal mustn't be too far away. Guard gave six and driver returned two

 

[LowLevel]

You would use two for departing the platform nowadays regardless of where the next signal is - if it's within a train length you just wouldn't start the dispatch sequence.

Six bells is strictly for drawing up within a platform or as a shunt move - it's for either repositioning a train or correcting a stopping position.

 

[tsr]

The 3-3-1 signal is very rarely used on my patch. Normally the scenarios where this would be used would also involve unusual/degraded working where there were also other issues to clarify over the phone, or face to face, first.

If you have given 2-2, perhaps due to suspicious activity on the platform and not wanting the other member of crew to open doors, you could, for example, give 3-3-1 to get them opened. However, it might be best to come to a clear understanding verbally first.

Obviously I very much doubt this was the case here, given it was done at every stop as a matter of routine.

I don't sign HSTs and, in fact, never have; can I check if the procedure for GWR is for the TM to check the train is fully accommodated in the platform from within the train, via the droplight, rather than stepping out onto the platform, as per some other stock / TOCs? If so, perhaps there was some problem with the droplights being taped out of use due to some mechanical or glass issue, such that the TM could not lean out to see that all doors were accommodated at specific locations. Maybe they agreed it would be best for the driver to clarify they were at the correct stopping position by means of buzzer code instead. Not that this is approved everywhere, you understand...

 

[Johncleesefan]

Purely speculating but perhaps it was on its way out of service by having lost traction interlock and therefore driver had to buzz to confirm brakes were applied before opening doors. Long shot...

 

[LowLevel]

Purely speculating but perhaps it was on its way out of service by having lost traction interlock and therefore driver had to buzz to confirm brakes were applied before opening doors. Long shot...

There's no traction or brake interlock on a HST anyway.

 

[JN114]

With the very complicated stopping point arrangements for HSTs and LHCS in Cornwall I suspect it was just a confirmation buzz between driver and guard they were both satisfied they were correctly positioned - Particularly if the set was short formed, long formed or in reverse.

 

[Gemz91]

You would use two for departing the platform nowadays regardless of where the next signal is - if it's within a train length you just wouldn't start the dispatch sequence.

Six bells is strictly for drawing up within a platform or as a shunt move - it's for either repositioning a train or correcting a stopping position.

Back in my guard days I was told by a driver to give him 6 on the buzzer when he had been authorised to pass a signal at danger that was on the end of a platform.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I don't sign HSTs and, in fact, never have; can I check if the procedure for GWR is for the TM to check the train is fully accommodated in the platform from within the train, via the droplight, rather than stepping out onto the platform, as per some other stock / TOCs? If so, perhaps there was some problem with the droplights being taped out of use due to some mechanical or glass issue, such that the TM could not lean out to see that all doors were accommodated at specific locations. Maybe they agreed it would be best for the driver to clarify they were at the correct stopping position by means of buzzer code instead. Not that this is approved everywhere, you understand...

On HSTs the guard must be observing the train arriving into the platform with the CDL panel active in case the driver sends 2-2. You must check that all coaches which *should* be platformed (not all may fit) are on the platform before you release. I've been taught to give a couple of seconds between stopping and releasing the CDL and to listen for the engine revs incase the driver has stopped short.

Our 'Principles of HST Dispatch' says.

'When arriving at a station you need to be in a position to release the doors where you can confirm the whole train is on the platform (where the whole train can be accommodated). '

Where the driver knows he has stopped short he would be expected to send me 2-2, wait for my response and then correct his stopping position before sending 3-3-1 for me to release the CDL. Throughout this the onus is on me as the Guard to ensure I do not release the doors in the wrong location or if the train may start moving again. The risks are increased tenfold with slam doors and CDL compared to a DMU with traction interlock, a HST will happily pootle off into the distance with all doors wide open and the driver none the wiser.

 

[455driver]

You would use two for departing the platform nowadays regardless of where the next signal is - if it's within a train length you just wouldn't start the dispatch sequence.

Six bells is strictly for drawing up within a platform or as a shunt move - it's for either repositioning a train or correcting a stopping position.

Some guards use 6 when departing if the next signal is still at red as a courtesy, some <cough> Bristol based drivers dont like it but me personally think it is a good idea.

I dont understand why a driver on a HST would be giving the 3-3-1 code as the guard should be at the correct location to see the train is accommodated.

 

[455driver]

I don't sign HSTs and, in fact, never have; can I check if the procedure for GWR is for the TM to check the train is fully accommodated in the platform from within the train, via the droplight, rather than stepping out onto the platform, as per some other stock / TOCs? If so, perhaps there was some problem with the droplights being taped out of use due to some mechanical or glass issue, such that the TM could not lean out to see that all doors were accommodated at specific locations. Maybe they agreed it would be best for the driver to clarify they were at the correct stopping position by means of buzzer code instead. Not that this is approved everywhere, you understand...

If that was the case then the TM would move up a coach until they could see out and release a coach less than normal.

The TM still has to see the train out of the platform so would need to be able to look out of the window for that.

 

[BestWestern]

There is no involvement from the Driver with door release on HSTs. The only buzzer code he would ever send would be 2-2, meaning 'do not release doors', most likely if he is aware he has failed to stop the train in the correct position. What you heard may well have been '6', for draw forwards, followed by '1', for stop.

I see this code was being sent after the train had stopped, in which case I'd agree with the suggestion that, for whatever reason, the crew had reached an understanding to exchange a buzzer code. I struggle to think of why, the Driver is not responsible for confirming stopping positions or for giving authority to release the doors. Odd.

 

[rebmcr]

Back in my guard days I was told by a driver to give him 6 on the buzzer when he had been authorised to pass a signal at danger that was on the end of a platform.

That's actually a great idea. You're not breaking the rulebook by giving RA with the signal on, and he doesn't have to worry about PTI issues. Very neat.

 

[adamello]

OT - 9 buzzers is police assistance required? that must be a painfully long count when you might not have a minute!

 

[Johncleesefan]

That's actually a great idea. You're not breaking the rulebook by giving RA with the signal on, and he doesn't have to worry about PTI issues. Very neat.

Don't hsts have to go through all the dispatch proceduce in this instance anyway even at an unbooked station with a platform danger sig (when it clears)

 

[BestWestern]

Don't hsts have to go through all the dispatch proceduce in this instance anyway even at an unbooked station with a platform danger sig (when it clears)

All slam door stock requires dispatch away from a platform, whether it's a station call or the train has been stopped there for some other reason. The usual code of '2' is used. If it's DOO (empty stock to depot, for example), the Driver is expected to check the train is safe to leave as best they can.

 

[Welshman]

I was once on an ATW 153 from Fishguard Harbour.

The unit was up against the stops, and the guard gave "6" to request the driver to draw up to the end of the platform to allow the string to be pulled to operate the crossing barrier.

 

[craigybagel]

Some guards use 6 when departing if the next signal is still at red as a courtesy, some <cough> Bristol based drivers dont like it but me personally think it is a good idea.
.

I do that myself, although at my TOC were not supposed to use 6 without consulting with the driver first. There are a couple of regular scenarios on my route card where the next signal after the platform won't clear until after the train has left (one is due to track circuits protecting a level crossing which can't cope with overly long trains, the other is coming off a branch where the driver has to stop at the box to return the token and some signallers won't give them a clear run on to the mainline because of that). If I know either of those situations are likely to happen, I'll check with the driver in advance if they want 2 or 6. Strictly speaking 2 is acceptable, but it's a nice courtesy, and it covers my posterior a bit more....

We use 3-3-1 pretty regular for attaching units as well, but I've never known it to be used in the OPs manner at every station.....

 

[GW43125]

All slam door stock requires dispatch away from a platform, whether it's a station call or the train has been stopped there for some other reason. The usual code of '2' is used. If it's DOO (empty stock to depot, for example), the Driver is expected to check the train is safe to leave as best they can.

How come? Surely if the CDL isn't released there wouldn't be a need?

 

[BestWestern]

How come? Surely if the CDL isn't released there wouldn't be a need?

Because it's still possible for somebody to pull at a door sufficiently for the external handle to remain 'down', and thus cause a door incident. The door won't open all the time the CDL is engaged, but it is technically still 'insecure'. It's a design weakness of the retrofitted CDL system on the MK3s. If a door is budget locked, then it won't move as it's held firmly in the fully closed position, but there is a certain degree of movement possible with the CDL engaged.

In the current PTI-aware culture, there is value in observing any train departing an unbooked platform stop, even power door stock. Somebody could still be touching the side of the train and at risk of injury. It isn't always possible, but as a Guard it's a good idea.

 

[GW43125]

Because it's still possible for somebody to pull at a door sufficiently for the external handle to remain 'down', and thus cause a door incident. The door won't open all the time the CDL is engaged, but it is technically still 'insecure'. It's a design weakness of the retrofitted CDL system on the MK3s. If a door is budget locked, then it won't move as it's held firmly in the fully closed position, but there is a certain degree of movement possible with the CDL engaged.

Fair point.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what's a budget lock?

 

[BestWestern]

Fair point.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what's a budget lock?

Sorry, using technical jargon! It's a lock operated with a carriage key. Slam doors are all fitted with a budget lock to allow them to be taken out of use and secured closed.

 

[GW43125]

Sorry, using technical jargon! It's a lock operated with a carriage key. Slam doors are all fitted with a budget lock to allow them to be taken out of use and secured closed.

Ah- not heard that term used before. Thanks!