26% Pay increase? GTR drivers.

[Carlisle]

This is true for GTR; other TOCs have taken a different approach.

Have they?,judging by the significant number of cancellations on Virgin last weekend, an official overtime ban could be just as destructive there.

 

[Bellbell]

For most jobs, the rewards on offer depend mainly on:

1. What proportion of people could (with sufficient training) do the job. E.g. professional football may be something that only 1 in 100,000 people could do - even if you trained the other 99.999% of people, there'd not get to the required standard; whereas many skilled/professional jobs a reasonably high proportion (maybe 1 in 100 to 1 in 10) of people to do with training
2. How long it takes to train to do the job - both in terms of time in education above the statutory minimum, and time after entering the workplace to reach that level. E.g. my job (a mid-level one in IT) is one that typically people get to with 10 years of experience, or 5 years plus a degree (which still adds up to 10 years total)
3. Any factors that make the job unpleasant/unpopular. This would include unsocial hours, physical hard work, working away from home, dirty/hot/cold conditions, etc; or on the flip-side perceived glamour or a job being a route to a related better job.

As these factors dictate how many (capable) people are available to do the job.

I've never driven a train (or thought about it as a career) but if I was to guess I'd say that #2 isn't that significant - I think I've read here that the total training time is something like 2 years and the only paper qualifications needed before this are GCSE or equivalent? I've no idea how significant #1 is - for instance is there something about the concentration requirement that means only 1 in 1,000 people could do it? Or is it like driving a car in that with sufficient instruction around 1 in 2 people would be capable of it? The unsocial hours and responsibility when something goes wrong must make #3 an issue - but from what I've read here there are plenty of applicants for vacancies... so I'm guessing that either a large proportion of these applicants wouldn't be suitable (which comes back to #1) or that train driving is an oddity that deviates from the norm.

Even if it does deviate, that's not necessarily a bad thing!

I think your commentary on your third point is flawed. The fact that there are lots of applicants tells you nothing. A lot of applicants are either obsessed with trains or money and fail because they have nothing else to offer or are not suited for other reasons (as you noted). However, a lot are also simply unaware of the realities of the shifts etc, and not always through lack of research. There are depots out there with pretty civilised rosters, relatively speaking, and others which have shifts starting and ending at much more unsociable hours. Unless you know someone internal, and even then someone internal at the right depot, you have no way of knowing exactly what you're signing up for until you get to the nitty gritty of recruitment. It doesn't mean those people are unsuitable, it might mean they'd be the best driver ever but don't want to trade their social lives for the job.

In terms of being able to do it (point 1) there's a difference between being able to do it during/immediately after training and being able to do it day in, day out, year after year, not assuming that that particular signal will be off, despite it having been off the last 937 times you left that platform. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people could do it after enough training, during daylight hours after a good night's sleep with good weather conditions etc.

 

[HH]

Have they?,judging by the significant number of cancellations on Virgin last weekend, an official overtime ban could be just as destructive there.

Possibly; but is it because they don't have enough drivers?

Do you know what their spare ratio is?

 

[Panupreset]

It is probably worth mentioning that once you are a driver, that is the end of the career progression for the majority of people. Yes a few may go into middle management as DM's or become Instructors, but for the majority career progression is over the day you pass out.

 

[HH]

It is probably worth mentioning that once you are a driver, that is the end of the career progression for the majority of people. Yes a few may go into middle management as DM's or become Instructors, but for the majority career progression is over the day you pass out.

Driver Instructors usually get an additional allowance. Then, of course you can become a staff representative; at least one driver made it from there to the Board.

You may be undercalling the chance of promotion: there are DMs, senior DMs, area DMs, Chief DM; then there's standards and other operational positions. Given that a lot of drivers don't want to become managers, the chances of promotion are probably not so low if you have any aptitude. And you can get some learning while still a driver through HGD.

 

[Moonshot]

Driver Instructors usually get an additional allowance. Then, of course you can become a staff representative; at least one driver made it from there to the Board.

You may be undercalling the chance of promotion: there are DMs, senior DMs, area DMs, Chief DM; then there's standards and other operational positions. Given that a lot of drivers don't want to become managers, the chances of promotion are probably not so low if you have any aptitude. And you can get some learning while still a driver through HGD.

This is very true......the reality is that a lot of drivers are quite happy working a 4 day week and not wanting to progress any further. There are also some who do like the overtime and also some who want to progress to other roles.

 

[Bromley boy]

Driver Instructors usually get an additional allowance. Then, of course you can become a staff representative; at least one driver made it from there to the Board.

You may be undercalling the chance of promotion: there are DMs, senior DMs, area DMs, Chief DM; then there's standards and other operational positions. Given that a lot of drivers don't want to become managers, the chances of promotion are probably not so low if you have any aptitude. And you can get some learning while still a driver through HGD.

All of the above is very true. Although it's interesting how few drivers wish to progress to management roles. This would probably come as a surprise to people outside the industry.

I think this is down to a number of reasons. For one thing the driver role is already pretty well paid. It certainly seems to pay more than a lot of management type roles elsewhere on the railway.

A lot of people become drivers because they enjoy working alone and wish to avoid office politics and some of the more unpleasant aspects of managing people. A move into the DM grade would obviously undermine this.

There's also a certain negativity associated with the DM role in some quarters amongst the driver population. I think the "us and them" attitude between drivers and management and indeed other roles is a very negative aspect of the industry. Sadly it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

 

[Bromley boy]

It is probably worth mentioning that once you are a driver, that is the end of the career progression for the majority of people. Yes a few may go into middle management as DM's or become Instructors, but for the majority career progression is over the day you pass out.

True, up to a point.

If you wish to remain in the driver grade, depending on where you pass out, there may be progression through the links to mainline/longer distance work.

Depot moves within a TOC are also possible and qualified drivers can move between TOCs pretty easily (for different work, more £) if they have a decent record.

 

[Robertj21a]

There seems to be the usual misunderstanding about what a Manager is actually supposed to do !
A good manager is there to get the job done, to standards, to deadlines and within budgets, through the motivation of others.
Many staff end up as 'managers' simply because they were best at their job, or had been there the longest - then they wonder why they are comparatively poor when assessed as part of management.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There seems to be the usual misunderstanding about what a Manager is actually supposed to do !
A good manager is there to get the job done, to standards, to deadlines and within budgets, through the motivation of others.
Many staff end up as 'managers' simply because they were best at their job, or had been there the longest - then they wonder why they are comparatively poor when assessed as part of management.

Those principles may well be true in general terms but for traincrew managers an awful lot of time is expended carrying out purely bureaucratic tasks associated with maintaining the competencies of the staff for whom they are responsible. Since these competencies are safety critical the role requires a management grade which can be responsible for signing off the paperwork. But it can be very tedious if paperwork is not your thing and it's no surprise that few traincrew find the role an appealing one.

Your second point is probably not as true as it once was and examples can be found in plenty of other industries. Equally there is a tendency in some businesses to recruit qualified managers who have no experience of the field they are working in and are expected to pick it up as they go along. This approach does not work very well on the railways. A little hard to find a happy medium!

 

[HH]

At some TOCs they split the Competence role from the Management. It seems to be one of those railway things that goes around and comes around...

 

[Bromley boy]

There seems to be the usual misunderstanding about what a Manager is actually supposed to do !
A good manager is there to get the job done, to standards, to deadlines and within budgets, through the motivation of others.
Many staff end up as 'managers' simply because they were best at their job, or had been there the longest - then they wonder why they are comparatively poor when assessed as part of management.

That's the case in other industries where you have teams of people all basically doing the same job and those with the most experience/aptitude end up managing the juniors. The junior members of the team naturally aspire to progress and eventually manage juniors themselves.

However this most definitely isn't the case on the railway. There is no natural progression from the driver grade into management. It's a completely different (admin focused) job that has to be actively applied for by the driver in question, usually because they prefer the lifestyle which is (generally) more of a regular 9-5, with regular "on call" shifts thrown in.

Becoming a DM also doesn't imply an individual is necessarily more experienced/able than the regular drivers they manage. It also doesn't necessarily pay as well as being a driver when Sundays/rest days are taken into account (depending on TOC).

 

[al78]

Many staff end up as 'managers' simply because they were best at their job, or had been there the longest - then they wonder why they are comparatively poor when assessed as part of management.

Promotion to the level of incompetence.

 

[HH]

Promotion to the level of incompetence.

Actually this is an issue that plagues the railway, simply because most promotions occur from within.

I know several current Operations Directors that I wouldn't trust to run the proverbial **** up in a brewery. Several of them have been "let go" previously by other TOCs - and yet still they get another directorship. It would feel good to blame this on "jobs for the boys (girls)", but the real reason is simply that there aren't enough good people and those hiring have no idea of the skill set needed.

 

[whoosh]

Anyway it's clear from a trusted government official's figures that it is not a 25% rise, but a mere 1.14% pay rise from £60,000 to £60,683 for a productivity increase of 33.3% with a rise from 3 days a week to 4.

Senior Civil Servant tells the truth

 

[dk1]

It is probably worth mentioning that once you are a driver, that is the end of the career progression for the majority of people. Yes a few may go into middle management as DM's or become Instructors, but for the majority career progression is over the day you pass out.

Who wants a career progression if it involves constant worry that you may be out of a job & worse still it pays less?

Oh & not to forget you'd have to do a full days work too!! No thanks.