24 hour weekend service on some Tube lines from 2015

[telstarbox]

The proposed 'Night Tube' services will be:

Central Ealing Broadway - Hainault
Jubilee - full line
Northern - Edgware/High Barnet - Charing Cross - Morden. Not Bank branch or Mill Hill East.
Piccadilly - Heathrow T5 - Cockfosters only. Not Heathrow T4 or Uxbridge - Acton Town.
Victoria - full line

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/cstp-night-map-2.jpg

 

[Simon11]

Its a very interesting map and I wonder if anyone has answers for the following:

Why have only these line been put forward for 24hr running? Could this be due to these lines having automatic operation? Thus the driver could focus more on the passengers than drivers?

Why extend some routes to the full distance (ie to Edware, High Barnet, Stanmore), yet curtail other lines (ie Central Route, Picadilly route)

To your post above, you don't have the no service to Heathrow T4.

 

[JamesRowden]

Its a very interesting map and I wonder if anyone has answers for the following:

Why have only these line been put forward for 24hr running? Could this be due to these lines having automatic operation? Thus the driver could focus more on the passengers than drivers?

Why extend some routes to the full distance (ie to Edware, High Barnet, Stanmore), yet curtail other lines (ie Central Route, Picadilly route)

To your post above, you don't have the no service to Heathrow T4.

Perhaps they plan to do engineering work on the sections not included during the night and engineering work on these sections through weekend closures.

 

[bicbasher]

So the Morden branch will get a through service to the Charing Cross branch overnights only.

The sections of each line chosen make sense and those which are closed are either due to a lack of open amenities, such as the City of London on the Bank branch on the Northern, although it could be argued Old Street is busy with revellers using Shoreditch or in residential areas who don't need tube trains going past their house in the middle of the night.

The only gripe is the Jubilee trains could terminate at Wembley Park as passenger use is quiet on the more suburban section of the line.

 

[telstarbox]

Minicab drivers will be fuming!

 

[Wolfie]

Minicab drivers will be fuming!

So will the night bus operators - I assume heavy cuts in the network will follow.

 

[bicbasher]

So will the night bus operators - I assume heavy cuts in the network will follow.

Agreed, for example the N155 follows the Morden branch of the Northern line, if your night bus route follows a tube line which will be open overnight at weekends, I'd be very concerned.

 

[telstarbox]

So will the night bus operators - I assume heavy cuts in the network will follow.

Remember the Night Tube is only on Fridays and Saturdays whereas Night Buses run 7 days per week, so it wouldn't be a direct replacement, just a quicker route if you live on one of the lines (or two of them at Stratford Finsbury Park!)

 

[Wolfie]

Remember the Night Tube is only on Fridays and Saturdays whereas Night Buses run 7 days per week, so it wouldn't be a direct replacement, just a quicker route if you live on one of the lines (or two of them at Stratford Finsbury Park!)

Yes, but I suspect the weekend nightbuses are perversely more lucrative to the bus company (lots of passengers paying cash or using PAYG) and hence routes may be destablised financially, yet can be cheaper for some passengers (eg with my Zone 1-2 travelcard I can go out to the end of a nightbus route at no extra cost, even if that is in Zone 6, whereas I would have to pay on the tube).

 

[WatcherZero]

Nighttube is only Firday/Saturday initially though their pledged to extend it in further years. Curious whether after being extended for the whole week there will still be a 3 hour nightly maintenence window like other systems with more extensive work on Sundays.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, but I suspect the weekend nightbuses are perversely more lucrative to the bus company (lots of passengers paying cash or using PAYG) and hence routes may be destablised financially, yet can be cheaper for some passengers (eg with my Zone 1-2 travelcard I can go out to the end of a nightbus route at no extra cost, even if that is in Zone 6, whereas I would have to pay on the tube).

The bus companies do not keep any money from fares in London - they are paid to operate a service by TfL and get bonuses based on providing an evenly spaced (high frequency routes) or on time (low frequency routes) service.

As TfL will also be paying for the tube I don't think they'll be worried.

It's quite possible that buses won't be accepting cash fares by then.

I accept that some of the night buses with large frequency increases on Friday or Saturday nights may few cuts in frequency.

 

[Be3G]

I also wonder if we'll see some positive changes to daytime non-24h routes, specifically those that're clearly designed (from their timetables) to connect with the tube, in the same way that we see those routes run all night to match the tube on New Year's Eve. For example, one of my local buses, the 121, currently only has a 3.5-hour gap in the northbound service overnight, and connects with the Piccadilly line at no less than four stations. It wouldn't be inconceivable to see that changed to run all night at the weekends (as it does for NYE).

 

[Deerfold]

I also wonder if we'll see some positive changes to daytime non-24h routes, specifically those that're clearly designed (from their timetables) to connect with the tube, in the same way that we see those routes run all night to match the tube on New Year's Eve. For example, one of my local buses, the 121, currently only has a 3.5-hour gap in the northbound service overnight, and connects with the Piccadilly line at no less than four stations. It wouldn't be inconceivable to see that changed to run all night at the weekends (as it does for NYE).

I'm sure there will be changes to bus services in association with this.

My own views are that frequencies on routes which largely serve tube stations along one of the lines will fall, and some routes may be added that connect to tube stations in areas of London that have previously been hard to serve with just buses.

I suspect on routes like the N207 where the night extension into central London is largely replacing the western Central line the frequency into Central London will fall or the route may be split into two to allow different frequencies on the different parts of the route.

Odd on the 121 that the Southbound gap is 5 hours.

 

[Mojo]

l'm surprised that the Piccadilly line is going to be included. Whilst it's definitely the 'tourist' line and would no doubt be very busy overnight, it is the only line on the map that won't have been upgraded by 2015. l wonder if, when the Piccadilly is due an upgrade it will start running 'normal' hours again, and perhaps if any of the Subsurface lines will be included when they are upgraded.

Similarly the Central line; l wonder if the fleet can hack it!

 

[bicbasher]

At least if an event at the O2 runs late, they'll no longer be the dash for the final Jubilee train into Central London which is earlier than the final train to Stratford.

Route 188 surely will see a cut in services at weekends?

 

[paddington]

All of the proposed 24h lines are already served by night buses that follow the route, more or less.

N5, N8, N9, N11, N55, N91, N98, N155, (N207) plus all the buses that go to Stratford and routes like 188.

I wonder what the tph will be overnight, as on NYE it seems to be as low as 2tph on the outer areas, and the buses are 2-4 bph anyway.

Rather than bus companies losing out (which Deerfold has mentioned will not be the case), TfL will be able to charge tube fares up to zone 5/6, which will presumably be something like £3.60, whereas the bus journey if it still exists might be £1.60. However, many passengers will probably have reached the cap - if they don't stay out past 0430 at least.

 

[telstarbox]

Frequency will be 15 minutes according to Boris.

 

[Clip]

I see no reason for any bus routes to be curtailed as a lot of them go past places where people live rather than a big walk from the nearest tube station. In fact it wouldnt surprise me if they were very well in tandem.

 

[Techniquest]

This is fantastic, something to do on an all-nighter in London! No more long festers at Victoria, East Croydon and St Pancras!

 

[Nym]

Why have only these line been put forward for 24hr running? Could this be due to these lines having automatic operation? Thus the driver could focus more on the passengers than drivers?

Each line on these except the picc has ATO and pretty new interlocking and ATP systems, and the Piccadilly interlocking and signalling in the core is in pretty good nick, remember the route is also four track between Barons Court and Northfeilds...

 

[Deerfold]

Frequency will be 15 minutes according to Boris.

"At least" every 15 minutes so may be more at certain times on certain lines.

 

[anthony263]

This is fantastic, something to do on an all-nighter in London! No more long festers at Victoria, East Croydon and St Pancras!

It might make things easier somewhat for those trying to break the Tube record by visiting every station on the network.

I am not exactly what to make of this as there will no doubt be some looses because of thsi although there will also be benefits

 

[Dstock7080]

Frequency will be 15 minutes according to Boris.

"Frequency:
Currently planning for four trains per hour. On the Northern Line (Charing Cross branch) this will be eight, with four serving each of the High Barnet and Edgware branches.
Services will dovetail with existing 24-hour and Night Bus services."

"Impact on Night Buses:
It is likely that the night bus network will change over time, with some frequency changes where bus routes are parallel to Night Tube routes. There will possibly be some new routes to complement the overnight Tube network. It is not expected that any routes will be removed. London Buses will develop their plans over the coming months.

 

[jopsuk]

Vice (can be NSFW in some circumstances) has a article about how it may impact on London clubbers- remember that for many people the idea of a Nightbus is one of untold terror (through pure prejudice, mainly)

 

[bicbasher]

"Frequency:
Currently planning for four trains per hour. On the Northern Line (Charing Cross branch) this will be eight, with four serving each of the High Barnet and Edgware branches.
Services will dovetail with existing 24-hour and Night Bus services."

[/I].

So it'll be an average of a 7.5 minute gap on the Northern line between Camden Town and Morden which isn't bad at all considering the other lines will only have 4tph.

I've travelled on the late night Morden trains and it will hopefully improve when people leave to go home instead of the current situation. Currently, it doesn't surprise me when passengers vomit between the Kennington platforms on a Fri/Sat night crossing over for the Bank branch trains to come in or cram on to those final through trains on the CX branch which are rammed.

 

[jon0844]

I read these changes came about after a fact finding mission to Hong Kong (or was it Japan?) that showed ways to manage maintenance on a 24hr service.

Does anyone know what these top tips where that suddenly allowed something to happen that has for a long time been considered near impossible?

And what next? Services on Christmas Day? (Ducks for cover)

 

[plymothian]

Incidentally according to the diagram, Piccadilly trains run first to Heathrow Terminals 1, 2, 3 then to 4. How would this work?

 

[CallySleeper]

Incidentally according to the diagram, Piccadilly trains run first to Heathrow Terminals 1, 2, 3 then to 4. How would this work?

It's 123 then terminates at 5.

 

[Mojo]

Which diagram are you referring to? The 'Night Tube Map' linked to in the opening post shows a service to Terminal 123 and 5. No Piccadilly line trains will operate to T4.

 

[plymothian]

None, I only have ever seen a shrunken version that wouldn't enlarge. Opticians this way ----->