-

[Aime]

-

 

[jon0844]

Have you accidentally done this before? I am sure they'll be checking the usage history - but I think it's quite important to establish from the outset if this really was an accident and a one-off.

Offering to pay after will make no difference to any defence, nor showing a record of your payment.

Also, regardless of the coat you were wearing - how could you remove another card and tap it without identifying the card first? Would you just tap anything you pulled out of your pocket? Was your contactless card loose in the pocket instead of a purse/wallet?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you’re able to share what TfL have sent you (make sure you hide your personal details so the whole web doesn’t get to see them!) that may help us to give better suggestions as we’ll know exactly what TfL think they are doing.

 

[Aime]

Have you accidentally done this before? I am sure they'll be checking the usage history - but I think it's quite important to establish from the outset if this really was an accident and a one-off.

Offering to pay after will make no difference to any defence, nor showing a record of your payment.

Also, regardless of the coat you were wearing - how could you remove another card and tap it without identifying the card first? Would you just tap anything you pulled out of your pocket? Was your contactless card loose in the pocket instead of a purse/wallet?

I have not done this before, no. I usually pay via contactless card. I read online that freedom pass usage history is stored on a persons record 8 weeks at a time. After 8 weeks, the history is no longer kept on an individual record. Also, if they do check usage history, how are they going to determine who the card was being used by at the time? How does the history of the journey determine identity- we live together so we would travel to and from the same address. Would this be something they would likely use to prosecute me? It seems a bit presumptuous.

By offering to pay, I meant for an outside of court settlement. The letter I received does not say that I am being issued a fine or court hearing. It merely asks me to state whether I believe I am guilty of an offence or not guilty. This begs my initial question, of whether it is unwise to plead guilty for my actions, as this may result in escalation in court, which is what I am trying to avoid. Therefore I would suggest paying some type of fine for any incurring costs. Although this has not been requested of me yet.

Due to the nature of rush hour in central London, I pulled the card out of my pocket and tapped it unaware it was the incorrect card. Upon passing the barriers, an officer stopped me and asked to see the card. I pleaded it was my bank card but they said it flagged up as something else. So I handed over the freedom pass in co operation with their request. If you have ever travelled in London during rush hour, you can understand the swift process of tapping in and out, and it was only until the the officer notified me that the wrong card had been used that I was adamant to restart my journey using my own personal card. The card was loose in my pocket because I intended to use it for travel. Do you believe that the answers to these questions will be of importance to the prosecution team? I am not sure how they usually deal with these circumstances as i’ve never been in one of this nature before. Do you think that my plea will stand?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

Hello, thanks for your response, the images attached are of the letter I received today:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

If you’re able to share what TfL have sent you (make sure you hide your personal details so the whole web doesn’t get to see them!) that may help us to give better suggestions as we’ll know exactly what TfL think they are doing.

Hi thanks for your response, here is the relevant letter

 

[Snow1964]

There is a possibility that they will go after the freedom pass owner as they have breached its conditions by lending it to you.

They will probably want their version of events on how it came to be in your pocession (which no one cares about, unless it is used), and will compare it to your version before deciding what action to take.
They are unlikely to take any action against card owner if they didn’t know you had taken it, but in a way that sort of reallocates whole problem to yourself.

So if haven’t already done so, better let the card owner know that you have used it, and had it seized for misuse.

I think the 8 week history is just a live lookup, the data is backed up at intervals, so longer history can be retrieved from backup disks (but is lot of effort and probably not going to be done for fare evasion)

 

[Aime]

Thanks for your response. Freedom pass owner is my mum, so her version of events will similarly reflect mine as I had her coat on with her belongings in it on that day. She would probably reinforce my series of events. However they have not stated that they would like her version of events in the letter, just mine, along with a guilty or not guilty plea.

As I said, I was not aware of the fact I had tapped her card until after it happened. I did not intend to appropriate her card, but can admit to wrongfully tapping in with it. I also did go back and pay for my fare once realising that I tapped in with her card. I asked the officer to let me out, so I could tap in with my bank card.

Yes that is what I thought. What would looking up the card usage history actually prove in relation to the incident? That’s why I wondered if I should send the bank statement from that day of me paying for the fare upon realising I tapped the wrong card.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

I just want some advise on how to approach the letter with consideration of the law.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for letting us see the letter.

As far as I can make out, TfL are still at the stage of gathering information. They have not yet told you if they will take you to court, or what they will charge you with if they do. So you don’t need to say whether or not you are guilty of anything.

Something else you also need to know is that TfL rarely offer the chance to settle out of court: so either they will prosecute, or they will take no further action. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try asking For a settlement!

So my suggestion would be that you should respond in much the way that @Hadders suggests in a number of other threads: here’s an example that I’ve taken from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-report-on-me-need-advice.229057/post-5568420:

It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before.

In this particular case, I’d suggest that you should also explain why you were borrowing your mum’s coat, and mention that as soon as you became aware of the problem you took steps to pay the fare you should have done with your contactless card.

 

[Haywain]

I’m just going to say that, from what we see on these forums, TfL are not inclined to settle out of court in most cases.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Why would you tap a pass when you usually use contactless? I could understand if it was a pass in a similar holder? There is quite a lot of data that can be discovered from pass use and also a lawful reason for viewing of CCTV

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

A few comments and observations:

• TfL take misuse of Freedom Passes seriously, if you haven't already done so you should tell your mum and TfL may get in touch with her and she could have her pass revoked
• TfL will look at the journey history of the Freedon Pass. They could link this up with CCTV to see who was travelling. I'm not saying they will do this but they could do this.
• You claim this is the first time this has happened but if, for example, the journey history shows that journeys are made regularly to Piccadilly Circus and TfL discover that you work nearby and that the times of the journeys match up with the times you start and finish work, this could present difficulties for you. I'm not saying that I don't believe you but simply pointing that if you have used the pass before it is better to tell them about it now rather than let them find out later
• Be aware that when you reply to the letter you have sent it is 'under caution', this is clearly stated in the letter TfL has sent you so you must be truthful in your reply to them

The advice I give on what to include in a reply to the tyoe of letter you have received is linked to in one of the earlier replies so I won't repeat it again. TfL aren't noted for settling out of court but there is no harm in trying. Experience has shown that engaging with the process normally yields a better result.

Feel free to post a draft of your reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read. Do keep us updated on any further correspondence you receive and will will be happy to assist.

 

[Twotwo]

Did you tap in or tap out? Because if it was the latter then that means you should have proof that you tapped in with the contact less card.

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you tap in or tap out? Because if it was the latter then that means you should have proof that you tapped in with the contact less card.

Why would that matter? The officers caught the OP red handed tapping the freedom pass, which makes an alert on the gate.

 

[Twotwo]

Why would that matter? The officers caught the OP red handed tapping the freedom pass, which makes an alert on the gate.

It absolutely does matter, if they tapped in then it looks like they were fare evading but if they had tapped in with their contactless but then accidently tapped out with the freedom card then it shows it was a mistake as they intended to pay. Card clash is very common.

 

[Hadders]

We need @Aime to confirm exactly what happened but reading the original post it appears that this ws at the start of the journey as it mentions being let out and then tapping back in with a contactless card to continue the journey.

After taking my details and removing the freedom pass, I asked the officer to let me back out so that I could tap my contactless card and re-enter.

 

[RPI]

TfL may well look at the tap history and look at CCTV to see who was using the card on previous occasions, TfL do this more so than National Rail TOC'S.

 

[Haywain]

It absolutely does matter, if they tapped in then it looks like they were fare evading but if they had tapped in with their contactless but then accidently tapped out with the freedom card then it shows it was a mistake as they intended to pay. Card clash is very common.

This might be reasonable if they were kept in the same wallet (although the question about why the OP was carrying her mother's pass would persist) but otherwise it looks to TfL simply like trying to evade the fare. And TfL have a hard line on misuse of Freedom Passes.

 

[John R]

I’m not sure whether I should plead guilty or not guilty, as I did in fact wrongfully tap the freedom pass, but I did not intend to do so, and upon being confronted with the mistake, I offered the pass up and paid the outstanding fare immediately.

Just to clarify, there appears no ambiguity that you are guilty, in the same way that if you are stopped for doing 40 in a 30 limit, saying you didn't notice your speed had drifted up doesn't mean you didn't commit an offence. That was committed when you used the wrong card - offering to use a correct card once caught doesn't mean the offence didn't happen.

If I put myself in the shoes of the investigator, who is probably cynical from having heard every excuse under the sun multiple times, I think you're going to have a difficult job persuading them that it was a genuine error. As one example of that, given the age one needs to be to be entitled to a freedom pass, I do wonder how many students would wear the coat of the owner of the freedom pass (I'm not saying you didn't, just that it all adds to the lack of plausibility on the story in contrast to their starting point which will be that it was fraudulent use.)

 

[AlterEgo]

It absolutely does matter, if they tapped in then it looks like they were fare evading but if they had tapped in with their contactless but then accidently tapped out with the freedom card then it shows it was a mistake as they intended to pay. Card clash is very common.

The OP says they had to be “let out” to tap back in, so I was under the impression this stop occurred at the start of the journey.

We don’t know what offence the OP is being investigated for yet, so some more detail from the OP would be helpful here.

 

[30907]

We don’t know what offence the OP is being investigated for yet, so some more detail from the OP would be helpful here.

The letter does not say, so I doubt the OP knows.

However, memory says there have been previous cases on here where TfL have opted for the straightforward Byelaw route of not having a valid ticket rather than anything more serious.

 

[ninhog]

given the age one needs to be to be entitled to a freedom pass, I do wonder how many students would wear the coat of the owner of the freedom pass

The OP didn’t state the type of Freedom Pass used, so the age of the owner and the likelihood of their coat being used by a student is moot.

 

[AlterEgo]

The letter does not say, so I doubt the OP knows.

However, memory says there have been previous cases on here where TfL have opted for the straightforward Byelaw route of not having a valid ticket rather than anything more serious.

This does appear to be their appetite, probably for simplicity.

 

[Aime]

Thanks for letting us see the letter.

As far as I can make out, TfL are still at the stage of gathering information. They have not yet told you if they will take you to court, or what they will charge you with if they do. So you don’t need to say whether or not you are guilty of anything.

Something else you also need to know is that TfL rarely offer the chance to settle out of court: so either they will prosecute, or they will take no further action. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try asking For a settlement!

So my suggestion would be that you should respond in much the way that @Hadders suggests in a number of other threads: here’s an example that I’ve taken from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-report-on-me-need-advice.229057/post-5568420:



In this particular case, I’d suggest that you should also explain why you were borrowing your mum’s coat, and mention that as soon as you became aware of the problem you took steps to pay the fare you should have done with your contactless card.

Hi, it does ask me to admit fault. So is it best to admit guilty to an offence?

What exactly does prosecute entail? That I would be jailed or have a criminal record? Or that I would be fined? The letter is extremely vague but it does ask me to admit to whether I am guilty or not.

Earlier that day I had walked my dog in the coat and continued on my day wearing it. Also my mum has a freedom pass for disability reasons not based on her age. So for those making comments about why I would wear her coat, i’m not sure what you’re suggesting from that, it’s not unheard of for mother and daughter to share clothes.

Another thing, they asked me to supply evidence in my favour. Shall I provide previous payments i’ve made via bank card? And the evidence of my paying the fare on the day? I’m not sure how to go about submitting evidence and what is good evidence and what is not.

 

[Aime]

The OP says they had to be “let out” to tap back in, so I was under the impression this stop occurred at the start of the journey.

We don’t know what offence the OP is being investigated for yet, so some more detail from the OP would be helpful here.

I was tapping into piccadilly and starting my journey there. Upon realising I used the wrong card I asked the officer to let me out so I could begin my journey using the correct card.

Will this make a difference to how the issue is treated? Since I did actually pay for my fare?

Also what grounds would they need to investigate card usage history or CCTV footage and how can I avoid them from taking this action? What would I need to say in my statement.

Any help and advice is appreciated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum!

A few comments and observations:

• TfL take misuse of Freedom Passes seriously, if you haven't already done so you should tell your mum and TfL may get in touch with her and she could have her pass revoked
• TfL will look at the journey history of the Freedon Pass. They could link this up with CCTV to see who was travelling. I'm not saying they will do this but they could do this.
• You claim this is the first time this has happened but if, for example, the journey history shows that journeys are made regularly to Piccadilly Circus and TfL discover that you work nearby and that the times of the journeys match up with the times you start and finish work, this could present difficulties for you. I'm not saying that I don't believe you but simply pointing that if you have used the pass before it is better to tell them about it now rather than let them find out later
• Be aware that when you reply to the letter you have sent it is 'under caution', this is clearly stated in the letter TfL has sent you so you must be truthful in your reply to them

The advice I give on what to include in a reply to the tyoe of letter you have received is linked to in one of the earlier replies so I won't repeat it again. TfL aren't noted for settling out of court but there is no harm in trying. Experience has shown that engaging with the process normally yields a better result.

Feel free to post a draft of your reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read. Do keep us updated on any further correspondence you receive and will will be happy to assist.

Hi there thanks for the reply.

They asked me to submit any evidence I have. What type of evidence will stand in my favour?

Also on what grounds would they investigate into the above.

The letter I have been sent is so vague and I extremely confused by how to approach it. I will look at the link above for some advice and get back with any questions.

Does it make any difference that I actually did pay my fare on the day? Will providing evidence of that be sufficient?

 

[Haywain]

what grounds would they need to investigate card usage history

The misuse that they have already identified.

 

[Aime]

We need @Aime to confirm exactly what happened but reading the original post it appears that this ws at the start of the journey as it mentions being let out and then tapping back in with a contactless card to continue the journey.

Start of journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

The misuse that they have already identified.

But how can they determine it was being misused and a mistake? I was entirely compliant and honest when I realised and actively pursued the payment of my journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

The letter does not say, so I doubt the OP knows.

However, memory says there have been previous cases on here where TfL have opted for the straightforward Byelaw route of not having a valid ticket rather than anything more serious.

What does this mean? What is straightforward byelaw route?

And if this is the route they do take, how shall I approach responding to their letter. The letter has literally given me no information about what they are investigating. For all I know the letter could be for somebody else as it specifies none of the facts of the incident. Please refer to it and let me know how to approach it as I have been given no details on the facts. Are they literally expecting me to admit fault for an incident I have no facts about? I don’t understand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum!

A few comments and observations:

• TfL take misuse of Freedom Passes seriously, if you haven't already done so you should tell your mum and TfL may get in touch with her and she could have her pass revoked
• TfL will look at the journey history of the Freedon Pass. They could link this up with CCTV to see who was travelling. I'm not saying they will do this but they could do this.
• You claim this is the first time this has happened but if, for example, the journey history shows that journeys are made regularly to Piccadilly Circus and TfL discover that you work nearby and that the times of the journeys match up with the times you start and finish work, this could present difficulties for you. I'm not saying that I don't believe you but simply pointing that if you have used the pass before it is better to tell them about it now rather than let them find out later
• Be aware that when you reply to the letter you have sent it is 'under caution', this is clearly stated in the letter TfL has sent you so you must be truthful in your reply to them

The advice I give on what to include in a reply to the tyoe of letter you have received is linked to in one of the earlier replies so I won't repeat it again. TfL aren't noted for settling out of court but there is no harm in trying. Experience has shown that engaging with the process normally yields a better result.

Feel free to post a draft of your reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read. Do keep us updated on any further correspondence you receive and will will be happy to assist.

I will post a write up of what I might send and would really appreciate if you proof read and just amended parts that won’t prove successful.

Also, this is the first time anything like this has ever happened to me. Will they take that into consideration? I have really be worried sick by the entire thing.

The letter also does not provide any facts. So I don’t really know how to approach it? I will go by your advice from the other forum. However they can’t really expect a person to respond sufficiently to a letter so vague? There is no contact number, so I can’t call to inquire about anything either. Do you have any advice for this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

I was tapping into piccadilly and starting my journey there. Upon realising I used the wrong card I asked the officer to let me out so I could begin my journey using the correct card.

Will this make a difference to how the issue is treated? Since I did actually pay for my fare?

Also what grounds would they need to investigate card usage history or CCTV footage and how can I avoid them from taking this action? What would I need to say in my statement.

Any help and advice is appreciated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==


Hi there thanks for the reply.

They asked me to submit any evidence I have. What type of evidence will stand in my favour?

Also on what grounds would they investigate into the above.

The letter I have been sent is so vague and I extremely confused by how to approach it. I will look at the link above for some advice and get back with any questions.

Does it make any difference that I actually did pay my fare on the day? Will providing evidence of that be sufficient?

Welcome to the forum!

A few comments and observations:

• TfL take misuse of Freedom Passes seriously, if you haven't already done so you should tell your mum and TfL may get in touch with her and she could have her pass revoked
• TfL will look at the journey history of the Freedon Pass. They could link this up with CCTV to see who was travelling. I'm not saying they will do this but they could do this.
• You claim this is the first time this has happened but if, for example, the journey history shows that journeys are made regularly to Piccadilly Circus and TfL discover that you work nearby and that the times of the journeys match up with the times you start and finish work, this could present difficulties for you. I'm not saying that I don't believe you but simply pointing that if you have used the pass before it is better to tell them about it now rather than let them find out later
• Be aware that when you reply to the letter you have sent it is 'under caution', this is clearly stated in the letter TfL has sent you so you must be truthful in your reply to them

The advice I give on what to include in a reply to the tyoe of letter you have received is linked to in one of the earlier replies so I won't repeat it again. TfL aren't noted for settling out of court but there is no harm in trying. Experience has shown that engaging with the process normally yields a better result.

Feel free to post a draft of your reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read. Do keep us updated on any further correspondence you receive and will will be happy to assist.

How much are they allowed to investigate without my knowledge? Aren’t they supposed to inform me on what they are investigating? Currently I hold no information about anything. There has got to be a capacity of what they are allowed to investigate before it becomes a privacy issue? I just don’t know how this works.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

Also does the type of freedom pass make a difference to how they treat the case? This is not a 60+ card. It is a disabled persons card I believe.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi, it does ask me to admit fault. So is it best to admit guilty to an offence?

What exactly does prosecute entail? That I would be jailed or have a criminal record? Or that I would be fined? The letter is extremely vague but it does ask me to admit to whether I am guilty or not.

Earlier that day I had walked my dog in the coat and continued on my day wearing it. Also my mum has a freedom pass for disability reasons not based on her age. So for those making comments about why I would wear her coat, i’m not sure what you’re suggesting from that, it’s not unheard of for mother and daughter to share clothes.

Another thing, they asked me to supply evidence in my favour. Shall I provide previous payments i’ve made via bank card? And the evidence of my paying the fare on the day? I’m not sure how to go about submitting evidence and what is good evidence and what is not.

You're right - it does ask you to deny or accept that you were committing an offence. Sorry for not having read the letter quite carefully enough!

At the risk of going off at a tangent, this is a little naughty of TfL: they don't actually tell you what is an offence, so how are you meant to know whether you were committing one or not? But I don't think it would help you to make this point too strongly - you have recognised that using your mum's pass to go through the barrier was wrong, although you may not know whether it was an offence or not.

So to a large extent, I think I still suggest that you write explaining the facts that you have told us
- that you were wearing your mum's coat
- that both her Freedom pass and your contactless card were in the same pocket
- that on starting your journey at Piccadilly Circus you used your mum's card by mistake
- that when an officer stopped you, your details were taken and your mum's card was taken off you
- you then started your journey again using your contactless card

Then spell out that
- you used the wrong card by mistake
- you did not travel on the wrong card
- you don't know what counts as an offence on TfL, so you don't know whether you have committed one
- but you know you made a mistake by accidentally using the wrong card, so would it be possible to settle this matter by paying the investigation costs that TFL have run up?

For the moment, don't worry about producing evidence: TfL have only asked for that specifically if you are claiming that there was a health reason why you did something wrong.

As plenty of people have said, TfL rarely agree to an out of court settlement, so they may take you to court (or 'prosecute' you, as I phrased it earlier). What that means is that they will tell you what offence they think you have committed, and ask you formally say whether you are 'guilty' or 'not guilty'. If you say you are not guilty, then a magistrate will look at what they say and what you say, and decide whether you are guilty or not. This will either happen in person ('you go to court') or these days may be done by them sending a letter which you have to reply to (this is called 'the single justice procedure').

If at the end of all that happening the magistrate agrees that you are not guilty, that's the end of it. But if you have said that you are guilty or the magistrate has found you guilty, then you will have to pay a fine. There will also be court costs and prosecution costs to pay. But you will not go to prison: in practice that never happens for getting one train fare wrong.

Depending on quite what charge TfL go for you may have a 'criminal record' (note for the experts out there - I know TfL has its own byelaws, and I assume its own act - but I'm assuming that they act pretty exactly like the railway byelaws and RoRA in having a split between a strict liability byelaw offence and a more serious offence with intent). But getting your ticket wrong is pretty minor, so it's most likely that no-one will worry too much about this. It might be a little embarrassing having to tell an employer about being done by TfL - but they probably won't be too worried.

 

[jon0844]

You originally said:

"I was involved in an incident where I accidentally tapped my mother’s freedom pass which was in the same coat pocket as my contactless card. The officer who stopped me asked me to hand over the card. I was hesitant to do so at first but upon realising my mistake, I offered the card over in attempt to rectify the situation. She then began quizzing me of my details and removed the card. I explained that the card was my Mother’s as was the coat I wore on that day, and asked them to give it back to me as there had been a mix up but they told me it will now be destroyed and the matter will be escalated. After taking my details and removing the freedom pass, I asked the officer to let me back out so that I could tap my contactless card and re-enter."

but now you suggest:

"I was tapping into piccadilly and starting my journey there. Upon realising I used the wrong card I asked the officer to let me out so I could begin my journey using the correct card."

Suggesting you realised the mistake yourself and went to ask to be let back out, which would be quite different. Especially when you also said originally that you were hesitant to hand over the card (which in itself suggests you knew you'd tapped the wrong card) and presumably got asked to show it before you'd gone over to voluntarily tell them of the mistake you'd made.

I would suggest you are honest on here if you want to be given help and advice.

 

[Haywain]

But how can they determine it was being misused and a mistake? I was entirely compliant and honest when I realised and actively pursued the payment of my journey.

It was used to tap in. That's all they need.

How much are they allowed to investigate without my knowledge? Aren’t they supposed to inform me on what they are investigating?

As much as they like. Criminal investigations wouldn't get very far if permission was needed to investigate.

 

[WesternLancer]

You originally said:

"I was involved in an incident where I accidentally tapped my mother’s freedom pass which was in the same coat pocket as my contactless card. The officer who stopped me asked me to hand over the card. I was hesitant to do so at first but upon realising my mistake, I offered the card over in attempt to rectify the situation. She then began quizzing me of my details and removed the card. I explained that the card was my Mother’s as was the coat I wore on that day, and asked them to give it back to me as there had been a mix up but they told me it will now be destroyed and the matter will be escalated. After taking my details and removing the freedom pass, I asked the officer to let me back out so that I could tap my contactless card and re-enter."

but now you suggest:

"I was tapping into piccadilly and starting my journey there. Upon realising I used the wrong card I asked the officer to let me out so I could begin my journey using the correct card."

Suggesting you realised the mistake yourself and went to ask to be let back out, which would be quite different. Especially when you also said originally that you were hesitant to hand over the card (which in itself suggests you knew you'd tapped the wrong card) and presumably got asked to show it before you'd gone over to voluntarily tell them of the mistake you'd made.

I would suggest you are honest on here if you want to be given help and advice.

In the OP's defense I would say loads of reasons why they could have acted as they did and be totally honest in their character - if you have made a mistake of the sort the OP outlines.

"Upon realising I used the wrong card I asked the officer to let me out so I could begin my journey using the correct card."

This means to me they had got through the Piccadilly Circus barrier using mum's card by mistake, then was approached by staff, staff asked to see card, OP realised mistake, and asked to be allowed back to the 'non platform side / non ticket holder side of barrier line ' to start all over again with a correct payment card - to me this is exactly what anyone who had made an honest mistake and wanted to 'put things right' would do. It's what I would do (of course to a ticket inspector used to dealing with fares evaders it is what a fare evader would do too - but an honest passenger would not think of that in the spur of the moment IMHO).

"Hesitant to hand over the card"

- explained by the fact that you have a mum who might need to use the card later that day - and giving it up to staff would make life much more complicated for the OP's mum. I can imagine lots of people being hesitant if they did not think they had made an intentional error.

Whilst @Aime (OP) needs to think how this looks to that staff on duty who spoke to her. We need to think how it seems to @Aime who juts thinks she made a simple mistake but now being threatened with court action.

I think @Aime should follow @Fawkes Cat very good advice on how to respond, and post draft response here for advice on the draft wording before sending it into to TfL

Also to @Aime we have seen a few cases on here in recent months where TfL have, on considering passenger's replies, issued a warning and taken no further action (either at court or request for further payment) - sorry I can't find them to link to at the moment as it would take a while to look - but that does mean that you have a chance of getting them to accept your explanation of the error you made, so maybe a decent chance to resolve this.

As @Haywain points out they have the evidence that allows them to take action and carry out further investigations if they choose to do so (eg to see if there are patterns of use of the freedom card that to them look suspicious - but if you have never used it by mistake or intentionally before then a good chance they will not find anything of that nature), but you need to try to persuade them that you made a simple mistake that will not happen again in the hope they accept that explanation and not take things any further.

 

[Aime]

You originally said:

"I was involved in an incident where I accidentally tapped my mother’s freedom pass which was in the same coat pocket as my contactless card. The officer who stopped me asked me to hand over the card. I was hesitant to do so at first but upon realising my mistake, I offered the card over in attempt to rectify the situation. She then began quizzing me of my details and removed the card. I explained that the card was my Mother’s as was the coat I wore on that day, and asked them to give it back to me as there had been a mix up but they told me it will now be destroyed and the matter will be escalated. After taking my details and removing the freedom pass, I asked the officer to let me back out so that I could tap my contactless card and re-enter."

but now you suggest:

"I was tapping into piccadilly and starting my journey there. Upon realising I used the wrong card I asked the officer to let me out so I could begin my journey using the correct card."

Suggesting you realised the mistake yourself and went to ask to be let back out, which would be quite different. Especially when you also said originally that you were hesitant to hand over the card (which in itself suggests you knew you'd tapped the wrong card) and presumably got asked to show it before you'd gone over to voluntarily tell them of the mistake you'd made.

I would suggest you are honest on here if you want to be given help and advice.

Sorry I think you might be misunderstanding this.

My original statement details exactly what happened.

Second statement is briefly what happened. They are both true one is just in short.

Once again. I made a mistake tapping in. Officers asked me to show the card I tapped in with and it was the wrong one. I complied and at the end asked to restart my journey with correct card. In the end the fare was paid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

In the OP's defense I would say loads of reasons why they could have acted as they did and be totally honest in their character - if you have made a mistake of the sort the OP outlines.



This means to me they had got through the Piccadilly Circus barrier using mum's card by mistake, then was approached by staff, staff asked to see card, OP realised mistake, and asked to be allowed back to the 'non platform side / non ticket holder side of barrier line ' to start all over again with a correct payment card' - to me this is exactly what anyone who had made an honest mistake and wanted to 'out things right' would do. It's what I would do (of course to a ticket inspector used to dealing with fares evaders it is what a fare evader would do too - but an honest passenger would not think of that in the spur of the moment IMHO.



- explained by the fact that you have a mum who might need to use the card later that day - and giving it up to staff would make life much more complicated for the OP's mum. I can imagine lots of people being hesitant if they did not think they had made an intentional error.

Whilst @Aime (OP) needs to think how this looks to that staff on duty who spoke to her. We need to think how it seems to @Aime who juts thinks she made a simple mistake but now being threatened with court action.

I think @Aime should follow @Fawkes Cat very good advice on how to respond, and post draft response here for advice on the draft wording before sending it into to TfL

Also to @Aime we have seen a few cases on here in recent months where TfL have, on considering passenger's replies, issued a warning and taken no further action (either at court or request for further payment) - sorry I can't find them to link to at the moment as it would take a while to look - but that does mean that you have a chance of getting them to accept your explanation of the error you made, so maybe a decent chance to resolve this.

Thank you for taking the time to comprehend my original statement. I appreciate the guidance from @Fawkescat and yourself. Once I’ve written something I will post it for you to have a look. I am very grateful.

My mum always uses her card and I always mine. I was travelling at peak rush hour 6:30/7 and didn’t slow down upon reaching the barriers to tap in. I pulled out “my card” and continued on. It was literally as the officer approached me that I became aware of which card I had used and immediately complied to resolve the issue. If it makes any difference, i’m a law student at university. This is really detrimental for me and I fear the consequences more than the average person. That’s why I am so concerned about what to do! Why is a small human error so impossible to account for in our society! I feel really bad. I hope everything will be okay.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

In the OP's defense I would say loads of reasons why they could have acted as they did and be totally honest in their character - if you have made a mistake of the sort the OP outlines.



This means to me they had got through the Piccadilly Circus barrier using mum's card by mistake, then was approached by staff, staff asked to see card, OP realised mistake, and asked to be allowed back to the 'non platform side / non ticket holder side of barrier line ' to start all over again with a correct payment card - to me this is exactly what anyone who had made an honest mistake and wanted to 'put things right' would do. It's what I would do (of course to a ticket inspector used to dealing with fares evaders it is what a fare evader would do too - but an honest passenger would not think of that in the spur of the moment IMHO).



- explained by the fact that you have a mum who might need to use the card later that day - and giving it up to staff would make life much more complicated for the OP's mum. I can imagine lots of people being hesitant if they did not think they had made an intentional error.

Whilst @Aime (OP) needs to think how this looks to that staff on duty who spoke to her. We need to think how it seems to @Aime who juts thinks she made a simple mistake but now being threatened with court action.

I think @Aime should follow @Fawkes Cat very good advice on how to respond, and post draft response here for advice on the draft wording before sending it into to TfL

Also to @Aime we have seen a few cases on here in recent months where TfL have, on considering passenger's replies, issued a warning and taken no further action (either at court or request for further payment) - sorry I can't find them to link to at the moment as it would take a while to look - but that does mean that you have a chance of getting them to accept your explanation of the error you made, so maybe a decent chance to resolve this.

As @Haywain points out they have the evidence that allows them to take action and carry out further investigations if they choose to do so (eg to see if there are patterns of use of the freedom card that to them look suspicious - but if you have never used it by mistake or intentionally before then a good chance they will not find anything of that nature), but you need to try to persuade them that you made a simple mistake that will not happen again in the hope they accept that explanation and not take things any further.

The thing is, how would they be able to determine WHO is frequently using the card? My mum makes a few regular trips weekly with her card, but in what way do they determine that’s her and not me since they are investigating me?

What’s particularly concerning for me is the fact i’ve received no facts or guidance from them via the letter. This makes it quite hard to draft my response as I don’t know to what extent I need to explain myself. @fawkescat said leave out submitting any evidence of previous payments or the payment from that day for now- but what if that makes me look bad? Also I don’t know anything about byelaws etc.