225 wrong way round

[armadillomaste]

Just been on the 17.45 ec leeds to kings cross and it was reversed due to a trchnical fault. Power car leading to london with dvt and another power car dragged behind with a warning light at the back due to failure im guessing. Anyone know if that power car will be dragged to kings cross or dropped off en route?

Driver said it was heavy dragging the other 91

 

[Tomnick]

Presumably the 'warning light' on the rear was the tail lamp, one of which must be carried on the rear (and nowhere else) of any train. On the original subject though, was the whole set reversed, or was it running with the DVT at the south end of the set (as usual) but dragged by another loco?

 

[455driver]

You say DVT (hinting at 91 and coaches) but then go on about power cars (hinting at HST), when you say "it was reversed" do you mean the whole rake was turned or did they just put another loco on top of the DVT?

Give us a clue.

 

[armadillomaste]

Sorry not always up on the proper words.

It was 91 at the front and dvt at the back with another 91 tagged on. Normally from leeds its 91 first to london so it was in reverse. Make more sense?

 

[Ediswan]

Was the leading 91 travelling sharp end or blunt end first ?

I have seen them travelling in a pack, but not with sharp end pointing south.

 

[Harbon 1]

Was the leading 91 travelling sharp end or blunt end first ?

I have seen them travelling in a pack, but not with sharp end pointing south.

It may have been reversed at Newcastle so there isn't a speed restriction placed on it

 

[Bridge189]

Sorry not always up on the proper words.

It was 91 at the front and dvt at the back with another 91 tagged on. Normally from leeds its 91 first to london so it was in reverse. Make more sense?

It's DVT first normally heading from the north to London.


So there was a 91 tagging the DVT and a dead one on the back in its normal position? I'm confused to be honest.

 

[rebmcr]

Sorry not always up on the proper words.

It was 91 at the front and dvt at the back with another 91 tagged on. Normally from leeds its 91 first to london so it was in reverse. Make more sense?

Sorry, that makes no sense.

Edit: Although trying to decode what you said - is this correct?

LEEDS = = = <__Dead 91__|•<__DVT/81__||_Some Mk4s_||_Driving 91_> = = = LONDON

 

[Crossover]

Let's try an alternative approach which may help with determining the formation...where abouts on the service was First Class?

 

[Pumbaa]

Sorry, that makes no sense.

Edit: Although trying to decode what you said - is this correct?

LEEDS = = = <__Dead 91__|•<__DVT/81__||_Some Mk4s_||_Driving 91_> = = = LONDON

That is my interpretation.

 

[Scottw]

A full train was dragged from Edinburgh to Newcastle by a class 67 due to a problem with the south facing dvt.,was turned round over the high level bridges so the class 91 could lead the train to London.this was on Sunday night.

 

[spurs4life]

I must of seen this same formation at kings cross today at 14.20 it was a 91 then a dvt on the country end and facing the correct way

 

[455driver]

Which end was the DVT?

It is normally at the London end.

 

[rebmcr]

Which end was the DVT?

a 91 then a dvt on the country end and facing the correct way

__________________

 

[YorkshireRider]

The 1505 KX-Leeds and 1745 Leeds-KX did run in reverse formation today, ive no idea why, the set is booked to go back to Bounds Green on arrival in London.

 

[armadillomaste]

Sorry, that makes no sense.

Edit: Although trying to decode what you said - is this correct?

LEEDS = = = <__Dead 91__|•<__DVT/81__||_Some Mk4s_||_Driving 91_> = = = LONDON

This!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

If the dead 91 was on the rear, I can only suggest it was being towed to bounds green for repair. Cheaper to use service train to KGX then use thunderbird to drag it back to BN.

 

[rebmcr]

If the dead 91 was on the rear, I can only suggest it was being towed to bounds green for repair. Cheaper to use service train to KGX then use thunderbird to drag it back to BN.

Why turn the train though? Surely if it's being dragged the panto would be down, so what difference does it make being on a DVT rather than another 91?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Can't think of anywhere it wold have turned except Newcastle, the only other suggestion I can think of is a failure of the 225 set in some way that may have required it turning at Newcastle to run a service, then needed a second 91 to haul it back to Leeds. But then logic would suggest it would have been sent to bounds green as soon as it got there for repair. Only other possibility is shortage of stock requiring it to stay in service.

So possible scenario thus

DVT leading fails at Newcastle.
Set 91 pulls train to London reverse formation having left Newcastle by HLB as opposed to KEB
DVT can't take train to BN as its now leading at the cross and is still kerfuffed! Kaput!
No room at BN or stock shortage so spare 91 leads to Leeds on top of DVT, set 91 still on set at chock end, set in reverse formation
Train arrives Leeds.
Returns to London set 91 now leading, still in reverse formation spare 91 now dead on rear
Train back in London spare 91 pulls set onto BN. Or still short of stock so set now does another Leeds or a York run and back before finally getting access to BN!


That's the best explanation I can come up with!!!

 

[O L Leigh]

There is no problem with it continuing in service until the end of the day. If something has failed in the DVT cab requiring the train to be reversed at Newcastle so that it can continue to London and then a second loco attached so that the train can be worked as a "top and tail" formation, there is no reason to take it out of service. The failed DVT is "boxed in" or "buried" in the formation by the second loco. Job done. Problem solved.

As for turning the train at Newcastle, this is the difference between allowing a faulty train to continue on it's way or being cancelled. If, for example, the windscreen on the DVT had been broken, the driver can simply change ends, leave via High Level Bridge and the DVT is now at the rear of the formation.

A failure does not automatically mean that a train has to be taken out of service, nor does it mean that a faulty DVT cannot be used for an ECS move to a maintenance depot (even if it would be required to run at a reduced speed).

O L Leigh

 

[rebmcr]

Ah so it's the DVT that had failed, and the second 91 was pretending to be a DVT? That makes a lot more sense.

 

[SPADTrap]

You guys mean this?

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/shaun_d79/8368776392/

 

[Bridge189]

The 1505 KX-Leeds and 1745 Leeds-KX did run in reverse formation today, ive no idea why, the set is booked to go back to Bounds Green on arrival in London.

After a bit of digging we've had two sets running around opposite way around in the last couple of weeks. One DVT failed at Newcastle and was turned around over the bridges to form the 16.25 the other must be this one.

I think the first one is now the correct way around again.

 

[ryan125hst]

You guys mean this?

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/shaun_d79/8368776392/

Can anyone else get this link to work? It's sending me to Flickr, but just a page with their logo, a few links and a search box.

 

[AndyLandy]

Can anyone else get this link to work? It's sending me to Flickr, but just a page with their logo, a few links and a search box.

Try this?

 

[ryan125hst]

Try this?

That's more like it!

 

[jopsuk]

Is there any speed restriction placed on the formation like that? If the loco was the other way round (using the "blunt" cab) it would be something like 100mph max, yes?

 

[Crossover]

Is there any speed restriction placed on the formation like that? If the loco was the other way round (using the "blunt" cab) it would be something like 100mph max, yes?

I think blunt end first it is 110mph limit

I see no real reason for a speed limit on such a formation - it will be slower to accelerate, but as long as all is working OK (if it wasn't I don't think it would be able to run) the brake force provided will be of similar value to a normal formation so I doubt braking capacity would be greatly affected

 

[E&W Lucas]

I think blunt end first it is 110mph limit

I see no real reason for a speed limit on such a formation - it will be slower to accelerate, but as long as all is working OK (if it wasn't I don't think it would be able to run) the brake force provided will be of similar value to a normal formation so I doubt braking capacity would be greatly affected

91's blunt end first are limited to 110.

If working "nose to nose" with a DVT, as would be the norm when this happens, there would not be a brake control unit operational at the rear of the set, so the brake performance, especially speed of application, is adversely affected. For any train to operate above 110, a brake control unit must be operational at each end.

 

[ryan125hst]

91's blunt end first are limited to 110.

If working "nose to nose" with a DVT, as would be the norm when this happens, there would not be a brake control unit operational at the rear of the set, so the brake performance, especially speed of application, is adversely affected. For any train to operate above 110, a brake control unit must be operational at each end.

I thought the DVT's applied the brakes directly, but sent the throttle signals to the Class 91 via TDM.

What do the brake control unit's do exactly?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Try this?

Slightly off topic, but this photo illustrates it well, so i'll ask here as it has been puzzling me for a while.

What has caused that diagonal dark line near the pantograph on the Class 91? I'm guessing it's just muck from the pantograph. I ask because I have noticed that it is on most Class 91's, but I haven't noticed it until recently.