222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

[Kite159]

Isn't there some difference with the seating though? I read something to that effect.

They have less 1st class in the coach which has 1st & standard class seats, compared with the 222/0s

 

[trawler]

Are the trains being refurbished at Derby?

 

[dk1]

BR had well-worked cascade plans, even for HSTs in anticipation of further electrification.

We were always down the pecking order on the GEML with Intercity stock but that made sense.

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Is it not the case that, other than the HST, the 153s and some of the rebuilt 320s, all Scotrail stock was delivered there new? (Certainly all the classes went there new, even if individual units didn’t)

It very much was with Intercity over the years. We also lost 101s for inferior 104s in the 1970s. They were in an awful state.

 

[Steven_G]

Isn't there some difference with the seating though? I read something to that effect.

I would conclude that they won’t have the 222/1 subclass now if no mechanical difference and ScotRail standardising on 5 car and identical interior layout and configuration which would make sense.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Here are the two images, shared directly on here for accessibility purposes and remain copyright of ScotRail:

I think they look so smart, and that’s primarily because they’ve standardised and used the regular ScotRail livery, rather than trying to be abstract and give them something different as they did with the HSTs.

 

[dk1]

I think they look so smart, and that’s primarily because they’ve standardised and used the regular ScotRail livery, rather than trying to be abstract and give them something different as they did with the HSTs.

I concur.

 

[Steven_G]

I had a chat with Gemini and (cut a little slack here) I would say the current 4 car HST seating is a little less with the proposed 222 configuration. Some timetables services are packed currently, doesn’t leave much growth.

The 5 car HST makes a big difference of course for standard seating. How many 5 carriage HSTs are ScotRail running currently do we know?

 

[hexagon789]

I had a chat with Gemini and (cut a little slack here) I would say the current 4 car HST seating is a little less with the proposed 222 configuration. Some timetables services are packed currently, doesn’t leave much growth.

HST 2+4 has 32 First, 206 Standard

222 Std Class intermediates seat 66 at max, so an approximated 5-car with one First Class vehicle would seat 22 First, 238 Standard.

If they are making everything line up with the windows, then I make it around 196.

HST 2+5s seat 280 Standard.

The 5 car HST makes a big difference of course for standard seating. How many 5 carriage HSTs are ScotRail running currently do we know?

Currently 15 out of 25 are formed with five trailers.

 

[bluesfromagun]

The rolling stock itself wouldn't be reason for line speed changes, and 222s can use the 'HST' speed differential so any performance gain/change would be from differences in acceleration.

I wouldn't imagine the timings will be any different from the current HST ones. The 2+4 & 2+5 HSTs are extremely quick, I can't possibly imagine the 222s could be any faster.

 

[hexagon789]

I wouldn't imagine the timings will be any different from the current HST ones. The 2+4 & 2+5 HSTs are extremely quick, I can't possibly imagine the 222s could be any faster.

222s are a little bit faster to 60mph certainly, but at higher speeds a 2+4 HST is very slightly quicker; a 2+5 is pretty much identical.

At no greater than 100mph running , unlikely to be it's unlikely to make any difference except perhaps in braking as 222s have much more responsive brakes.

 

[Highlander1]

There are 22 units for 19 diagrams I think - doubt there will be any doubling up there.

There's no need to any doubling up. Also platform lengths make this impossible

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Yes. realigning the seats to windows as previously quoted too could drop capacity. I doubt it'll be 5 car for 5 car.

I'd doubt a 10 car would work on any Glasgow services, but Edinburgh to Aberdeen could well handle a 10. Helpful for the big events in Edinburgh.

10 cars dont fit anywhere at Aberdeen. Platform 5 and 6 can take a 9 car. Also it wouldn't fit at any intermediate station except Dundee

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I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

They had 26 sets but they're far from all being in serviceable condition. They are covering 16 diagrams a day. Plan for 222 is 19 diagrams a day.

 

[dk1]

They had 26 sets but they're far from all being in serviceable condition. They are covering 16 diagrams a day. Plan for 222 is 19 diagrams a day.

I know they are very elderly but that really does sound like a dreadful availability figure.

 

[Killingworth]

They had 26 sets but they're far from all being in serviceable condition. They are covering 16 diagrams a day. Plan for 222 is 19 diagrams a day.

That poor availability percentage must only be beaten by the 769s. TPE proudly turn out 46 from 51 of their 20 year old 185s from their custom built Siemens depot at Ardwick.

I hope Scotrail will have such excellent maintenance facilities ready for their 222s.

 

[kkong]

10 cars dont fit anywhere at Aberdeen. Platform 5 and 6 can take a 9 car. Also it wouldn't fit at any intermediate station except Dundee.

A 10-car 222 is slightly shorter than a 9-car 800, due to the longer car lengths.of the 800.

 

[Tayway]

Do they have selective door opening. This is currently an issue with 5 carriage HSTs at some stations (Broughty Ferry and Monifieth for instance)

 

[hexagon789]

Do they have selective door opening. This is currently an issue with 5 carriage HSTs at some stations (Broughty Ferry and Monifieth for instance)

Yes, they do.

 

[HighlandStorm]

A look on Twitter and Facebook suggests this announcement is being welcomed like a bucket of cold sick!

Any change the seat refurb could involve putting the HST first class seats in the 222 first class? They are by far the best seats on the UK rail network at present IMHO!

 

[185143]

A look on Twitter and Facebook suggests this announcement is being welcomed like a bucket of cold sick!

Any change the seat refurb could involve putting the HST first class seats in the 222 first class? They are by far the best seats on the UK rail network at present IMHO!

Not really surprising!

As much as I do like the HSTs, they're knackered and really do need replacing. It needs to happen and I have no issue with that.

It just so happens I hate 222s. Horrid things to have to travel on. Just hope they do a good job with the refurb, they certainly need one. In an ideal world they'd have ordered new IETs. They're cleared for pretty much all of the routes at the end of the day.

 

[Altnashin]

HST 2+4 has 32 First, 206 Standard

222 Std Class intermediates seat 66 at max, so an approximated 5-car with one First Class vehicle would seat 22 First, 238 Standard.

If they are making everything line up with the windows, then I make it around 196.

HST 2+5s seat 280 Standard.



Currently 15 out of 25 are formed with five trailers.

So less capacity than the HST’s.
Seems odd when Scotrail are looking for passenger growth.
I did hear talk that speeds on the Highland Mainline were being looked at so that HST’s could run at 158/170 speeds.
Aberdeen-Dundee has HST speeds, seems a shame that the only trains capable of reaching line speed on various parts of The HML are unable to.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Ummmmmmmmmm ........... maybe not all.

Yes the HSTs are past their sell by date. But I can't remember being on a 220, 221, or 222 and ever thinking they were actually better. And they seemed to buzz and rattle and shake a lot more.

At the moment if I was doing a trip across Scotland then I'd probably still choose a HST service over the 222 if there was the option.

So IMHO at best a sidegrade and possibly a slight downgrade.

While I'd also much rather an HST which does offer a great passenger experience I have to concede to reality and my scheduled HST journeys have instead been a 170.

I'm hoping the bike slots will be easily accessible as the four bays they added on the HSTs were convenient to use.

 

[Snow1964]

Do they have selective door opening. This is currently an issue with 5 carriage HSTs at some stations (Broughty Ferry and Monifieth for instance)

The 5 carriage HSTs are about 151m long

The 5 carriage 222s are 117m long (and not any doors except empty rear cab door in last 4m).

Although there is selective door operation, ideally if looking to operate these as the norm for next 10-15 years (and there is maintenance extension option until 2042) would be looking to extend platforms to at least 122m. I think the proposed new EMU and BEMUs for Scotland would also need platforms around the 122-125m length.

 

[Highlander1]

Yes, they do.

It won't be used. Same it's it's available on a 170 but Scotrail won't use it

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A 10-car 222 is slightly shorter than a 9-car 800, due to the longer car lengths.of the 800.

I didn't know that. Still not required though

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Not really surprising!

As much as I do like the HSTs, they're knackered and really do need replacing. It needs to happen and I have no issue with that.

It just so happens I hate 222s. Horrid things to have to travel on. Just hope they do a good job with the refurb, they certainly need one. In an ideal world they'd have ordered new IETs. They're cleared for pretty much all of the routes at the end of the day.

Lead time and costs are the main barriers to that. I imagine Scotrail want rid of the HST at the earliest opportunity given the running costs and fleet availability

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So less capacity than the HST’s.
Seems odd when Scotrail are looking for passenger growth.
I did hear talk that speeds on the Highland Mainline were being looked at so that HST’s could run at 158/170 speeds.
Aberdeen-Dundee has HST speeds, seems a shame that the only trains capable of reaching line speed on various parts of The HML are unable to.

Other than a few peak journeys HSTs are rarely near capacity. It's also been suggested earlier in the thread they are looking at adding a 6th coach to boost capacity on the higher load journeys.

 

[Amos390]

I’ve seen in the images of how the 222s will look, they seem to have the numbers as 2225xx. Is this going to be the case and Scotrail will make a new subclass of /5s (Like Lumo made the /6s) or will they stay as they are now?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’ve seen in the images of how the 222s will look, they seem to have the numbers as 2225xx. Is this going to be the case and Scotrail will make a new subclass of /5s (Like Lumo made the /6s) or will they stay as they are now?

It looks that way. Lumo are getting 222001-005, while ScotRail will inherit 006-023 and 101-104. Has it been confirmed that Lumo’s are going to /6?

My conclusion is this will result in 222501-504 (ex 101-104) and 506-523 (ex 006-023). Thus no 505.

Later down the line, if ScotRail opted to take on Lumo’s 5 then there’s a high chance the class return to original unit numbers at that point.

 

[380101]

It won't be used. Same it's it's available on a 170 but Scotrail won't use it

You have to use the selective door opening or you can't open the doors on a 222. The driver has to select the number of coaches to open every time they open the doors or hand over control to the guard to open.

Some platforms on the routes only hold 4 coaches so unless they get extended or 222s don't call at them, selective door opening will be in operation.

 

[43055]

Quite. I'm not sure why we're supposed to care about the political opinions of a businessman. We all no doubt buy things all the time that financially benefit someone we wouldn't agree with, whatever our own political leanings are.

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Why are they unreliable though? Their older, and possibly more intensively worked, Voyager cousins aren't. Are they just not being maintained well as they're on their way out from the Midland Main Line?

With the fleet and timetable changes they are very intensely worked now with some diagrams only having 2-3 hours on the depot overnight which leaves little time to do much maintenance. The voyagers generally get longer each night which allows for work to be done.

 

[aaronspence]

It won't be used. Same it's it's available on a 170 but Scotrail won't use it

Isn't it needed for Pitlochry?

 

[John Bishop]

Isn't it needed for Pitlochry?

Nope, nice long platform there.

 

[hexagon789]

Isn't it needed for Pitlochry?

Thought Pitlochry had some of the longest platforms on the HML.

Newtonmore and one side of Dalwhinnie on the other hand...

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So less capacity than the HST’s.
Seems odd when Scotrail are looking for passenger growth.
I did hear talk that speeds on the Highland Mainline were being looked at so that HST’s could run at 158/170 speeds.
Aberdeen-Dundee has HST speeds, seems a shame that the only trains capable of reaching line speed on various parts of The HML are unable to.

If they do indeed reduce the seating density, at best Standard Class would be similar to a 2+4 HST, but will likely be slightly less.

The HML used to have HST differentials but they were removed and the Kingussie to Kincraig section downgraded to 90mph from 100 in around 1992/93 as a cost saving measure.

The 100mph section was restored in about 2002 and SP differentials were introduced in 2013.

Essentially, what I'm driving at, is that they could implement HST differentials again or at least give the 222s dispensation to use the SP ones - there's precedent on the route.

 

[stevieinselby]

Was any replacement for Mk3s ever an improvement? I strongly suspect they’ll be looked back on as a pinnacle of design, especially in terms of ride quality.

Mk4s were a huge improvement on Mk3s – there was a really noticeable difference between IC125s and IC225s when I used to travel on GNER.
And when I travelled up to the Highlands a couple of years ago, the Turbostar I had in one direction felt a lot nicer to travel in than the HST in the other – quieter and smoother.

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.

The 222s should be a lot more reliable than the HSTs, so fewer trains needed to cover the same number of diagrams.