222 contract for Scotrail: updates (not speculation)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Does anyone know if there are confirmed plans with the kitchen/galley? It’s quite a generous sized one on the 222’s and probably not something ScotRail wants.

 

[380101]

This is interesting - practically speaking I assume this means using Starlink, though OneWeb might be an option as well. I guess it makes sense in the context of patchy mobile coverage in a lot of areas of Scotland. Would it be the first installation of Starlink/satellite broadband on UK trains?

ScotRail already have some of the Inverness based 158s fitted with Starlink.

 

[Davester50]

Well yes, but that's no guarantee of things continuing as they have done. Plus the post you were replying to was talking about proper catering in first class. Lots of train have proper catering in first class without full buffets and red stripes. Though I do agree that it seems unlikely that the buffet will survive on the 222s!

Well, it's only speculation based on existing practice at that TOC. We weren't discussing others TOCs, were we?
And yes, I think the abolition of the counter in the refurbishment does seem likely. The loss of first class seats to the driving cab, is offset by the gain of the fixed position buffet going.

Overall seat count comparison will be interesting.

 

[Highlander1]

It should be - no scenery like Scotland north of the central belt. And 6 bikes too - this feels like a step forward.

6 bike spaces is the same as the HST

 

[ainsworth74]

Overall seat count comparison will be interesting.

Yes I was thinking that. Has there been anything announced about seating capacity of the 222s once they're with ScotRail? Whilst 222s aren't as awful as 220/221s in utilising the available space for seats they're still not brilliant. I can't help but suspect that a 5-car 222 isn't going to have as many seats as a 5-car HST (though I'd guess it might have the same as a 4-car).

 

[Warrior2852]

How many diagrams are needed to cover the whole Central Belt - Aberdeen and Inverness I7C?

HSTs are also used for some Aberdeen to Inverness via Elgin/Nairn services.

 

[sh24]

The best of the Voyagers. Replacing the seats is a minor concern as the current ones are suitably comfortable in Standard (and better than the mk3 seats) and acceptable in First.

 

[Davester50]

Yes I was thinking that. Has there been anything announced about seating capacity of the 222s once they're with ScotRail? Whilst 222s aren't as awful as 220/221s in utilising the available space for seats they're still not brilliant. I can't help but suspect that a 5-car 222 isn't going to have as many seats as a 5-car HST (though I'd guess it might have the same as a 4-car).

Yes. realigning the seats to windows as previously quoted too could drop capacity. I doubt it'll be 5 car for 5 car.

I'd doubt a 10 car would work on any Glasgow services, but Edinburgh to Aberdeen could well handle a 10. Helpful for the big events in Edinburgh.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I'd doubt a 10 car would work on any Glasgow services, but Edinburgh to Aberdeen could well handle a 10. Helpful for the big events in Edinburgh.

Suppose the simple answer is a 10 car can’t even fit into Queen Street.

Personally I wouldn’t see the point running 10 cars to or from Edinburgh to be honest, unless there were a sporting match/event on where the extra capacity was justified or to re-balance a set that is out of place. In my own opinion, I’d rather all of the InterCity Network to and from the Central belt goes over to 222’s and I suspect that will happen, unless 1 is kept for swapping 158’s and 170’s about. Then you’ve also got the possibility of switching most of the Aberdeen to Inverness services to 222’s as well.

The majority of platforms are too long for 10 cars, even the bay platforms at Aberdeen don’t fully fit a 9 car 800 with the cab and crew door being off the platform. There’s only a limited amount of platforms at Edinburgh that can fit 10 cars, having noticed it with the Voyagers.

 

[WillC]

6 bike spaces is the same as the HST

Ah, I forget Scotland is ahead of us down south in this respect

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are 22 units for 19 diagrams I think - doubt there will be any doubling up there.

 

[Warrior2852]

There’s only a limited amount of platforms at Edinburgh that can fit 10 cars, having noticed it with the Voyagers.

1/20, 2/19, 7/11, 8, 9 and 10 are the ones that can do 10 cars facing west.

 

[Davester50]

There are 22 units for 19 diagrams I think - doubt there will be any doubling up there.

Not in everyday use, no.
Too soon for the 2027 Open at St Andrews.

 

[InTheEastMids]

They will basically be "new" trains when they enter service.

As much as any train with a 20 year old diesel grumbling away under the floor can be described as new.
A couple of things I didn't notice - with PR it always pays to be cynical and look for things that could have been said in the media release, but have not been.

1. Emissions: Whilst they are being fitted with stop-start which will help in stations (On low-wind days, it's very unpleasant at St Pancras, Leicester etc), there doesn't seem to be anything about particulates and NOx abatement, which is a shame as I think they fall well short of modern expectations in this regard.

2. It talks of "comprehensive interior refresh" but doesn't explicitly say the seats will be replaced (or even re-covered, given this was only done recently on standard class!).

If they're changing the seat layouts, perhaps reducing the amount of first class, or even ripping out the buffet bar, are there enough standard class seats (including potentially from the 3 spare vehicles from the Lumo units), or are they going to copy Lumo and have e.g. one carriage per train with a new seat design, or...?

6 bike spaces is the same as the HST

Perhaps this is what is planned to happen to the galley/buffet bar areas, as they currently only have 2 spaces

There are 22 units for 19 diagrams I think - doubt there will be any doubling up there.

Let's hope those interventions on the mechanicals work, because there's a growing thread on here which suggests they are regularly falling well short of required availability.

Shame we couldn't have had this in the East Midlands rather than the 810's Would have been a good stopgap before complete electrification.

The 222s were not going to soldier on as a "stopgap" until the sun expands and consumes the Earth, which, in around 4 billion years, is expected to happen before MML electrification is completed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2. It talks of "comprehensive interior refresh" but doesn't explicitly say the seats will be replaced (or even re-covered, given this was only done recently on standard class!).

It explicitly states new seats throughout further down the list. Lumo must be kicking themselves as they could presumably have the old ones and so not have an "odd one out" coach...

 

[jadmor]

I've already seen posts on

Good news. As much as I like the HSTs, they are now getting far too old.

Even though the livery is being standardised, hopefully the “InterCity” branding is retained (minus the “7”, since Dunfermline decided to go and complicate matters).

Maybe more for speculative discussion, but it’s a pity the electrics in the mk3s will make them largely redundant without 43s. The power doors and interior refurbs are quite good (albeit they might be hiding a multitude sins and rust).

Might be good PR to send one of the Aberdeen or Inverness services this way?

 

[Cach17]

At long last, the days of the (remaining) HSTs are numbered.

As others have said, they're legends, but good lord, they're basically half a century old now. Few trains ever reach that milestone.

They may not be brand new, or bi-mode, but I'm sure Scottish passengers will see the 222s as an improvement.

 

[ChilliSauce]

At long last, the days of the (remaining) HSTs are numbered.

As others have said, they're legends, but good lord, they're basically half a century old now. Few trains ever reach that milestone.

They may not be brand new, or bi-mode, but I'm sure Scottish passengers will see the 222s as an improvement.

I think it's fair to say that when the 222s displaced the HSTs off the MML it wasn't exactly "an improvement"..

 

[Harpo]

I think it's fair to say that when the 222s displaced the HSTs off the MML it wasn't exactly "an improvement"..

Was any replacement for Mk3s ever an improvement? I strongly suspect they’ll be looked back on as a pinnacle of design, especially in terms of ride quality.

 

[SC318250]

Wonder of some Class 222 may operate a few early peak Fife Circle services in am before going on Aberdeen/Inverness turns?

 

[aaronspence]

Was any replacement for Mk3s ever an improvement? I strongly suspect they’ll be looked back on as a pinnacle of design, especially in terms of ride quality.

Absolutely, The Mark 3 carriages at Scotrail I've been on are still very clean, smooth and feel fresh. Whilst these 222 upgrades, like Starlink etc will be very welcome, I think the experience of hauled carriages will be missed in ride quality, but I've never ridden a 222 so we'll see!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was any replacement for Mk3s ever an improvement? I strongly suspect they’ll be looked back on as a pinnacle of design, especially in terms of ride quality.

I always find this strange. Personally I found them rough and noisy, with a characteristic sway and an almighty bang when another one passed. The contemporary European coaches were light years ahead.

22x ride pretty well, to be fair, that's one of the few really good things about them, though the heavier 221s are better.

 

[222001]

I always find this strange. Personally I found them rough and noisy, with a characteristic sway and an almighty bang when another one passed. The contemporary European coaches were light years ahead.

22x ride pretty well, to be fair, that's one of the few really good things about them, though the heavier 221s are better.

Fully agree there, MK3s tend to lurch about. I suppose it depends what you’re looking for. I’d say 221s are the best ride quality you can get at the moment.

Anyway, it does make me wonder what will happen to the 3 ‘spare’ coaches. Stored for potential future use, or disposed of?

 

[nlogax]

Looking forward to seeing the back of the HSTs and the intro of freshly refurbed 222s. The HSTs were comfy enough although I've never really subscribed them being the pinnacle of anything, plus the ones up here are absolutely knackered. Farewell squeaky vestibules!

 

[Merle Haggard]

//

Anyway, it does make me wonder what will happen to the 3 ‘spare’ coaches. Stored for potential future use, or disposed of?

I've wondered which coaches Lumo will make spare. Will it be the MFs which require reseating but which have a good window layout and toilet, or the cars with buffets in, which need more rebuilding including inserting windows? (the 7 cars had two MF in)

 

[Warrior2852]

Wonder of some Class 222 may operate a few early peak Fife Circle services in am before going on Aberdeen/Inverness turns?

Only one train per day each direction does the circular service now, every other service now continues to Leven on both sides, or Perth on the coastal side. Don't know if they'd clear 222's for Leven.

 

[northernbelle]

These will be a great fit for ScotRail and suitable replacements for the HSTs which are overdue their retirement. The ScotRail HSTs are absolutely superb in terms of passenger environment but not up to modern standards in terms of reliability, accessibility and various other features.

Also glad to see the standard ScotRail blue livery being proposed for the 222s - it will be far more practical to keep them looking fresh than the I7C light colour and will provide a consistent image across the whole network.

I foresee these being the last diesels ScotRail acquires - I do wonder about whether there's an opportunity to use them on other lines such as the West Highland in future, if and when non-diesel stock and electrification is rolled out on the routes they'll cover initially.

 

[Bringback309s]

Its a shame the 222's going to Lumo couldn't have a generic blue interior installed rather than the grey, this colour scheme would suit both Lumo and Scotrail for their operations. Something generic but in keeping, moquette something like this

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its a shame the 222's going to Lumo couldn't have a generic blue interior installed rather than the grey, this colour scheme would suit both Lumo and Scotrail for their operations. Something generic but in keeping, moquette something like this

Lumo are using the grey because the seat fabric isn't being replaced on the existing seats as it was done very recently, and it'd look a bit odd to have one coach different (it looks odd enough that they're different seats in one coach). ScotRail are installing new seats so they'll do what suits them.

 

[thenorthern]

I assume this will now be the end of the Intercity 125s?

Just a question, Scotrail has 26 HST sets but they are getting 22 Class 222. That is a reduction of 4 trains.