20mph in all built up areas in Wales - thoughts?

[RailWonderer]

This is turning out to be very controversial and is facing significant opposition - 50k signiatures in a few days to overturn this law.

20mph: Wales first UK nation to drop speed limit from 30mph

The default speed limit for built-up areas across Wales reduces from 30mph to 20mph on Sunday.

www.bbc.co.uk

Welsh ministers said a 20mph (32km/h) limit would reduce deaths and noise and encourage people to walk or cycle but it has caused controversy with some drivers.

The United Nations, environmental and road safety groups have backed the move but opposing politicians declared it a "war on motorists".

Rising fuel costs of running engines for extended periods of time at very low speeds added to increased polution and congestion and increased journey times. To me this looks like levelling down.

Why not reduce motorway speeds to 50mph as it will save a few lives per year?

Worse, you are accused of being a murderer if you are against these changes.

What needs to be done is public education programmes about not jaywalking (US term I know) and keeping off the roads and the stop, look, listen, think mantra they teach to children but to the wider public. There are so many schemes to reduce road casualties and road deaths they could run yet they go for the chepaest option to blanket reduce speed limits to the detriment of the majority. This is little Britain at its worst.

I'd be curious to hear the forum's stance on this whether or not you live in Wales or drive there.

The breaking limits are absolute bs and do not apply to the vast majority of cars on the road today. These statistics are cherry picked to suit a totally incoherant narrative.
This RAC article November 2022 cited

Do 20mph speed limits reduce crashes and casualty numbers?

A new study from has found that reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph has had ‘little impact’ on road safety, collisions, and speeding.

www.rac.co.uk

Following the release of the data, researchers from the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, said: “Our findings showed that a city centre 20mph intervention had little impact on long-term outcomes including road traffic collisions, casualties and speed, except for a reduction in traffic volume.

Even pro 20mph advocates do not exaggerate to the '5 times more likely to be killed' narrative of Wales. https://www.gobike.org/20-mph-bill-survey-6994

60% chance of surviving at 30mph vs 90% at 20mph.

I don't want to be breathing in fumes of idling vehicles at low speeds in street I'm walking in. This will only make urban pollution worse.

 

[stuu]

Won't somebody think of the poor motorists

 

[Gloster]

Well, some people think it is a good idea: I would still think that even if I lived in Wales and was reliant on a car. We need to wean people off the unthinking use of the car and, although I accept that this measure isn’t perfect, it is a start. If you wait until you have the perfect solution, you will never get anything done. I note that you seem to propose to educate pedestrians to give way to the cars: to my eyes this looks a bit like a further surrender to the God car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to oppose it until more recently when I've done a fair bit of cycling in central London, where it really does make a difference to how sharing with other traffic feels, because overtaking is significantly reduced because on a long flat straight it's not that hard to cycle at 20mph, and even if you're slower than that it's still less oppressive.

20 isn't right for main distributor roads, but there is the scope to "sign up" (just as there is to higher limits), and it seems some Councils in Wales have been proactive about that and some have just whinged. The ones who were proactive have of course delivered better outcomes for their residents and visitors.

 

[Mawkie]

Just another storm in a teacup. Camden, where I lived for 20 years, went 20mph over a decade ago. It barely made any difference to my driving times, if any.

However, having vehicular transport trundle past me on my bike at 20mph was much more palatable than having them go past me at 30mph. The world didn't stop spinning. It did however reduce road fatalities by 25% iirc (but someone could check the figures for me I'm sure).

 

[richa2002]

All for it in residential areas that aren't obvious main roads.

 

[Sunil_P]

Would make bus travel slow, especially at quieter times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would make bus travel slow, especially at quieter times.

Could more than account for the difference by going dual door and speeding boarding by way of either flat fare or tap on/off, and by providing bus lanes so there isn't an effect from congestion. All of those things will have far more effect on an urban bus journey than a reduced top speed which is rarely reached anyway.

 

[Ted633]

20 mph for purely residential roads and heavily built-up areas makes sense. It's not particularly safe to drive much faster down those sorts of roads anyway, especially if there are a lot of parked cars.
But main trunk roads being reduced to 20 mph is a bit daft. I know councils can apply for changes, but surely the law should of been drafted so trunk routes weren't included and let councils decide if they want to reduce those roads to 20 mph.

 

[Gloster]

20 mph for purely residential roads and heavily built-up areas makes sense. It's not particularly safe to drive much faster down those sorts of roads anyway, especially if there are a lot of parked cars.
But main trunk roads being reduced to 20 mph is a bit daft. I know councils can apply for changes, but surely the law should of been drafted so trunk routes weren't included and let councils decide if they want to reduce those roads to 20 mph.

Which would lead to screams from motorists and virtually all councils deciding not to upset them: they may well only be a minority, but they are noisy one with plenty of useful backers. Whatever the reason for doing it this way, to have left it to the councils would have badly weakened the measure.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

20 mph for residential roads and around schools (during term time) makes sense. But not on main roads that were 30-40mph where the road is clear and free from parked cars

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What needs to be done is public education programmes about not jaywalking (US term I know) and keeping off the roads

"Jaywalking" with all of its associated problems, would not work as a concept in most of the country, with roads not having crossings in plenty of places.
Plenty of discussion has happened around jaywalking and more and more places are getting rid of it because it's a dumb law.
The ability to just cross a road wherever is safe is such a useful thing.

and the stop, look, listen, think mantra they teach to children but to the wider public.

Checking before crossing a road is something I assume 99.5% of people do 100% of the time.
I don't think it needs more pushing.

 

[deltic]

Why do we have 30mph limits in the first place. Introduced in 1934 with no apparent justification for the limit chosen. In 2022 19 pedestrians were killed and 158 were seriously injured in Wales. How many would still be alive and less seriously injured with 20mph limits. Pedestrians and cyclists made up 26% of those killed and seriously injured that year.

Look at all the tests driverless cars are being put through now, if the car was invented today we would probably have very different approaches to who is allowed to drive, what they could drive and the speed they were allowed to travel at.

 

[RailWonderer]

20 mph for residential roads and around schools (during term time) makes sense. But not on main roads that were 30-40mph where the road is clear and free from parked cars

This I agree with and is most sensible.

Ultimately doesn't matter what the limits are, they won't prevent people running someone else doing way over 30mph. These new blanket 20mph limits won't reduce deaths significantly because a lot of deaths weren't by people going 30 in a 30, there were caused by overspeeding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

20 mph for purely residential roads and heavily built-up areas makes sense. It's not particularly safe to drive much faster down those sorts of roads anyway, especially if there are a lot of parked cars.
But main trunk roads being reduced to 20 mph is a bit daft. I know councils can apply for changes, but surely the law should of been drafted so trunk routes weren't included and let councils decide if they want to reduce those roads to 20 mph.

You can't have more than one* default urban speed limit, it would just be confusing. Thus it's down to Councils to put 30 on the appropriate radial roads, just as they might put 40 on some of them already.

Some Councils have been proactive and engaged with the process, others have whined. Guess which have done better for their inhabitants?

* Well, you could have say 20 single and 30 dual, but most urban roads aren't dualled so it'd be a bit of a pointless distinction.

 

[jfollows]

I'm against it, but I have no problem with its introduction in the sense that it's what devolution is supposed to be about and I'll have no problem complying with it.

My main objection is that it's a bypass to bring down the average speed of motorists in built-up areas to more like 30mph whereas today many of them drive at more like 40mph, which is definitely far too fast. 30mph with an alert driver is fine.

I don't believe it will be enforced other than sporadically, eg Tower Bridge, but it'll have a positive effect.

 

[Noddy]

This is turning out to be very controversial and is facing significant opposition - 50k signiatures in a few days to overturn this law.

20mph: Wales first UK nation to drop speed limit from 30mph

The default speed limit for built-up areas across Wales reduces from 30mph to 20mph on Sunday.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rising fuel costs of running engines for extended periods of time at very low speeds added to increased polution and congestion and increased journey times. To me this looks like levelling down.
Why not reduce motorway speeds to 50mph as it will save a few lives per year? Worse, you are accused of being a murderer if you are against these changes.

What needs to be done is public education programmes about not jaywalking (US term I know) and keeping off the roads and the stop, look, listen, think mantra they teach to children but to the wider public. There are so many schemes to reduce road casualties and road deaths they could run yet they go for the chepaest option to blanket reduce speed limits to the detriment of the majority. This is little Britain at its worst.

I'd be curious to hear the forum's stance on this whether or not you live in Wales or drive there.

The breaking limits are absolute bs and do not apply to the vast majority of cars on the road today. These statistics are cherry picked to suit a totally incoherant narrative.
This RAC article November 2022 cited

Do 20mph speed limits reduce crashes and casualty numbers?

A new study from has found that reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph has had ‘little impact’ on road safety, collisions, and speeding.

www.rac.co.uk

Even pro 20mph advocates do not exaggerate to the '5 times more likely to be killed' narrative of Wales. https://www.gobike.org/20-mph-bill-survey-6994


I don't want to be breathing in fumes of idling vehicles at low speeds in street I'm walking in. This will only make urban pollution worse.

Once again a storm in a tea cup driven by the Mail/Express/those who like to think there is a war on the motorist etc.

BTW the M4 around Newport (and many other roads) has been reduced to 50mph to reduce pollution-I use it most weeks and yeah, my journeys might take a few minutes longer (although given the road layout in this area I wonder if it makes much of a difference) but air I’m breathing is less polluted so I really couldn’t care.

And if you think you are being accused of a being a murderer for opposing these restrictions you are trolling.

 

[RailWonderer]

Once again a storm in a tea cup driven by the Mail/Express/those who like to think there is a war on the motorist etc.

I never quoted the mail or the express and I don't read them.

And if you think you are being accused of a being a murderer for opposing these restrictions you are trolling.

That came from the time being against those hostile to those against covid restrictions. It was a juvenile argument.

 

[rcro]

I’ve not driven since the change, but first two days - roads have seemed much less noisy and less rush hour traffic - I guess the slower speeds help this as takes longer to get to the next traffic light queue.

Lots of unintended consequences, of course, but yet to see where all the new rat runs will be. With everyone doing the same speed it’s now taking longer to find gaps in traffic to cross the road.

Whilst not a fan of this, suspect it will be forgotten soon enough, or speeds changed up on suitable artery roads.

The 50mph limit on the M4 at Newport still feels like the worse decision - if coming off at Newport you have to plan 3 miles ahead as, in 3 lanes of traffic all doing 48mph, changing lane isn’t easy… but air quality is “better”!

 

[Krokodil]

This is turning out to be very controversial and is facing significant opposition

So did the indoor smoking ban. I don't know a single person today who doesn't think that it was a good thing.

Why not reduce motorway speeds to 50mph as it will save a few lives per year?

Excellent idea, car engines aren't particularly efficient at 70 (or 80 in practice), get people to slow down and you'll save pollution and improve fuel consumption. Please post the link to the petition when you've set it up.

What needs to be done is public education programmes about not jaywalking (US term I know)

The American concept of jaywalking encapsulates the idea of a society where cars enjoy extra privileges. Streets should be for people, not cars.

This is little Britain at its worst.

Is France also "little Britain"? Austria? The Netherlands?

 

[d9009alycidon]

Meanwhile the Scottish Government proposal have been leaked....

 

[danm14]

Be thankful you aren't in Ireland, where the latest proposal is not only to reduce the speed limit in built up areas to 30 km/h (19 mph) - but also to reduce the speed limit on most other roads which currently have an 80 km/h (50 mph) limit to just 60 km/h (37 mph), as well as reducing it to 80 km/h (50 mph) on a large proportion of roads that currently have a 100 km/h (62 mph) speed limit.

 

[dangie]

Excellent idea, car engines aren't particularly efficient at 70 (or 80 in practice), get people to slow down and you'll save pollution and improve fuel consumption.…

At what speed are electric cars most efficient? If they are to be the future then maybe set the speed limit to that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At what speed are electric cars most efficient? If they are to be the future then maybe set the speed limit to that.

The slower the more efficient with an EV, give or take very slow speeds which the motor may not be designed for.

 

[fwsmVor]

Be thankful you aren't in Ireland, where the latest proposal is not only to reduce the speed limit in built up areas to 30 km/h (19 mph) - but also to reduce the speed limit on most other roads which currently have an 80 km/h (50 mph) limit to just 60 km/h (37 mph), as well as reducing it to 80 km/h (50 mph) on a large proportion of roads that currently have a 100 km/h (62 mph) speed limit.

Most Irish villages and small towns outside the Dublin bubble don't have pavements on their major through road, which has an 80 limit. It's an absolutely harrowing experience trying to make it down these as a pedestrian. Plenty of houses on them, too. I certainly wouldn't want to live in one with kids.

 

[stuu]

Worse, you are accused of being a murderer if you are against these changes.

What needs to be done is public education programmes about not jaywalking (US term I know) and keeping off the roads and the stop, look, listen, think mantra they teach to children but to the wider public. There are so many schemes to reduce road casualties and road deaths they could run yet they go for the chepaest option to blanket reduce speed limits to the detriment of the majority. This is little Britain at its worst.

What needs to be done is a public education programme reminding drivers that they do not own the roads, and that they all have obligations to other road users.

How many drivers give way to pedestrians when turning into side streets? How many even know they are legally compelled to?

Noisy people on social media is not the same as general discontent. The policy was in Labour's manifesto, the people chose this.

 

[Falcon1200]

These new blanket 20mph limits won't reduce deaths significantly because a lot of deaths weren't by people going 30 in a 30, there were caused by overspeeding.

That is a good point; Do the studies show how many deaths and injuries in 30mph areas were due to vehicles travelling at or below the limit compared to those who were speeding?

As to reducing pollution, it is obvious that a vehicle moving more should produce fewer emissions, but OTOH at 20mph a vehicle will occupy a given stretch of road for longer than at 30mph (congestion-dependent of course), so is the overall pollution level greatly reduced?

How many drivers give way to pedestrians when turning into side streets? How many even know they are legally compelled to?

I would say none, and hardly any!

 

[A0]

Once again a storm in a tea cup driven by the Mail/Express/those who like to think there is a war on the motorist etc.

BTW the M4 around Newport (and many other roads) has been reduced to 50mph to reduce pollution-I use it most weeks and yeah, my journeys might take a few minutes longer (although given the road layout in this area I wonder if it makes much of a difference) but air I’m breathing is less polluted so I really couldn’t care.

And if you think you are being accused of a being a murderer for opposing these restrictions you are trolling.

Bit in bold - given the huge reduction in tail pipe emissions over the last 10+ years, driven entirely by technology and improvements to car design, such measures on "environmental" reasons aren't actually necessary and are really just a bit of virtue signalling, usually from the autocratic left in politics.

 

[Krokodil]

Bit in bold - given the huge reduction in tail pipe emissions over the last 10+ years, driven entirely by technology and improvements to car design, such measures on "environmental" reasons aren't actually necessary and are really just a bit of virtue signalling, usually from the autocratic left in politics.

Particulate emissions don't just come from the tailpipe.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Bit in bold - given the huge reduction in tail pipe emissions over the last 10+ years, driven entirely by technology and improvements to car design, such measures on "environmental" reasons aren't actually necessary and are really just a bit of virtue signalling, usually from the autocratic left in politics.

Try cycling in Manchester as I do - the stink of diesel is everywhere.