2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[nw1]

I disagree with your description of Prime Minister Netanyahu.

Regarding ‘whataboutery’, not as all, I regard Netanyahu as a strong leader. There seems to be an awful lot of criticism of Israel, but very little about the forces that they are fighting.

I most certainly stand with Israel and their right to defend themselves.

I also stand with the ordinary Palestinian people and regard the high number of civilian deaths as a huge tragedy. I think where we differ though is that I believe Hamas has a lot of responsibility for this.

So is bombing and killing tens of thousands of Gazans an acceptable response? That is where we differ, I think.

 

[sjpowermac]

So is bombing and killing tens of thousands of Gazans an acceptable response? That is where we differ, I think.

No, I don’t believe that we do differ on this point. At no point did I condone the killing of any civilians.

What I did say was that I stand with Israel and their right to defend themselves.

I do wonder though if any country would have simply ignored the events of 7th October 2023? Or the promise of Hamas to come back and in their own words ‘carry out many more October 7ths’.

Quite how Israel should have tackled an enemy that routinely embeds itself amongst a civilian population, that’s a much more difficult question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2024 ==

However, you cannot whine about other nations wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the earth while Israel continues its indiscriminate bombing and the nutcases in charge bang on about Palestinians being "human animals".

Do you have a reference for your quote, I have not seen this previously and I clearly disagree if anyone has referred to Palestinians (or indeed anyone) in this manner.

In reference to this post, are you saying that you feel it is justified for Israel’s enemies to threaten to ‘wipe Israel off the face of the earth’?

In addition, why do you insist on making everything so personal?

 

[GusB]

Do you have a reference for your quote, I have not seen this previously and I clearly disagree if anyone has referred to Palestinians (or indeed anyone) in this manner.

The comment came from Yoav Gallant, whose sacking reignited this thread.

When Palestinians tell the world what is happening to them, why are they met with disbelief? | Yara Hawari

The Palestinian viewpoint is credible and vital as Israel continues to unleash carnage on Gaza, says Yara Hawari, a fellow at Al Shabaka, the Palestinian Policy Network

www.theguardian.com

The Israeli defence minister, Yoav Gallant, said they were fighting “human animals” and the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, called Palestinians “children of darkness” in a now deleted tweet.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Where is the evidence for this, when he ran an extremely pro-Israel administration last time?

He is generally seen as anti-war. Even CNN admitted this a while back.

 

[eldomtom2]

He is generally seen as anti-war. Even CNN admitted this a while back.

"Anti-war" is very vague. What Trump actually did last time regarding Israel is much more concrete.

 

[sjpowermac]

The comment came from Yoav Gallant, whose sacking reignited this thread.

Thank you for the link. Agreed, utterly appalling.

But let’s look at what you have said here and then neatly sidestepped:

However, you cannot whine about other nations wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the earth while Israel continues its indiscriminate bombing and the nutcases in charge bang on about Palestinians being "human animals".

Agreed, Gallant’s comments are deeply offensive and I condemn them without reservation. What you have said here though is deeply troubling.

Do you stand by your statement that Israel can not ‘whine’ about other nations wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth. Really?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Do you stand by your statement that Israel can not ‘whine’ about other nations wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth. Really?

How do you expect the Palestinians to react when they’ve been oppressed for so long? If Israel actually worked with the Palestinians instead of oppressing them the way they have, support for Hamas would dwindle and thus terrorism would die. That’s the only way you can really defeat terrorism. It’s an apartheid state, there are countless human rights organisations calling them out for decades no matter how much you try to ignore or dismiss it.

The way you defend Israel, I would be very surprised if you don’t have an interest in it. I.e. either you or your family have ties with Israel. And please don’t try to take the moral high ground.

 

[sjpowermac]

How do you expect the Palestinians to react when they’ve been oppressed for so long? If Israel actually worked with the Palestinians instead of oppressing them the way they have, support for Hamas would dwindle and thus terrorism would die. That’s the only way you can really defeat terrorism. It’s an apartheid state, there are countless human rights organisations calling them out for decades no matter how much you try to ignore or dismiss it.

The way you defend Israel, I would be very surprised if you don’t have an interest in it. I.e. either you or your family have ties with Israel. And please don’t try to take the moral high ground.

So to be clear: do you support Hamas/Iran in their threat to wipe out over 7 million Jews?

I have already stated very clearly that I view the civilian deaths in Gaza as an absolute tragedy. That’s hardly a blanket endorsement of Israel.

I think it is hardly ‘taking the high moral ground’ to say I don’t support Hamas or Iran in threatening to kill 7 million people.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

So to be clear: do you support Hamas/Iran in their threat to wipe out over 7 million Jews?

I have already stated very clearly that I view the civilian deaths in Gaza as an absolute tragedy. That’s hardly a blanket endorsement of Israel.

I think it is hardly ‘taking the high moral ground’ to say I don’t support Hamas or Iran in threatening to kill 7 million people.

Please stop trying to twist what I’m saying and playing the victim card. I didn’t say anything about supporting Hamas. If you read my message very carefully, you’ll see I was describing how Palestinians feel they have no other choice which is the issue. I also described how I think Israel should be going about it and how to eliminate (or almost eliminate) terrorism. You’re not going to eliminate terrorism by slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent civilians. If anything, Palestinian support for armed struggle, including for Hamas, unsurprisingly has gone up.

If you’re this person’s brother, what are going to do? Protest peacefully or grab a gun and join the struggle. Sadly it’s going to be the latter.

Again, if Israel worked with the Palestinian people (for a two state solution or whatever that might be), support for these organisations like Hamas would dwindle making them fade into non-existence.

 

[sjpowermac]

The way you defend Israel, I would be very surprised if you don’t have an interest in it. I.e. either you or your family have ties with Israel.

Why do you feel the need to speculate as to whether or not I have connections with Israel?

If it bothers you so much, why not just ask if I’m Jewish?

It does not matter to me as to who you are, or where you are from. I don’t believe in treating people differently because of their faith, lack of faith, or where they are from. Do you?

How do you expect the Palestinians to react when they’ve been oppressed for so long?

Please stop trying to twist what I’m saying and playing the victim card.

I did read your post very carefully. If you afford my post the same careful reading you will see that I have not accused you of supporting Hamas. I have asked you to clarify your position.

So to be clear: do you support Hamas/Iran in their threat to wipe out over 7 million Jews?

To draw a line under this, would a fair summary of your position be that whilst you yourself don’t support the threat of killing 7 million people, you empathise with/understand why Hamas and Iran hold this position?

You seem to overlook completely the brutality of Hamas towards fellow Palestinians prior to the war. You also overlook how Iran is viewed by many of the Sunni Muslim countries and the brutality of the Iranian government towards their own people.

Any time that I have mentioned the failings of Hamas and Iran on this thread it has been met with calls of ‘whataboutary’. I don’t mention this to excuse the failings of Israel, of which there have been many, but because there are two sides to the story.

Again, if Israel worked with the Palestinian people (for a two state solution or whatever that might be), support for these organisations like Hamas would dwindle making them fade into non-existence.

As I am sure you know well, there have been multiple attempts to create a state for the Palestinians, all of which their leaders have rejected.

Here’s are the main features of the deal the Palestinian leadership walked away from in the Clinton era Camp David negotiations:

• A Palestinian state in 91% of the West Bank, and all of Gaza, with a 1% land swap.
• Israeli control of the shared airspace.
• Israeli evacuation of all settlements in the new Palestinian state.
• Palestinian administration and custodianship over the Muslim and Christian sites of the Old Quarter and the Temple Mount, as well as any other Muslim and Christian holy sites. Other holy sites would be under Israeli or independent control.

I must emphasise, yet again, I lay no blame at the door of the ordinary Palestinian civilians. What they have suffered in this war is beyond appalling. What they suffered under Hamas was also appalling.

As to why previous peace talks failed, I don’t believe that Israel is the guilty party there.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Why do you feel the need to speculate as to whether or not I have connections with Israel?

If it bothers you so much, why not just ask if I’m Jewish?

It does not matter to me as to who you are, or where you are from. I don’t believe in treating people differently because of their faith, lack of faith, or where they are from. Do you?

I have always been very careful not to conflate Zionism with Judaism. There are of course many Jews that support Palestine even long before this conflict.

I would never treat you differently, it’s just that it explains why someone may be biased and have certain opinions like another member admitted on this thread.

To draw a line under this, would a fair summary of your position be that whilst you yourself don’t support the threat of killing 7 million people, you empathise with/understand why Hamas and Iran hold this position?

It’s not that I empathise or understand, it’s more of a case of it’s inevitable that when a group of people have been oppressed for so long, resistance groups, including opportunistic ones looking to exploit the situation, are going to form.

I appreciate the cordial conservation and wish you a goodnight.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

….. it’s more of a case of it’s inevitable that when a group of people have been oppressed for so long, resistance groups, including opportunistic ones looking to exploit the situation, are going to form.

Agreed. And as the Jews have been oppressed for 5000 years it was inevitable.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed. And as the Jews have been oppressed for 5000 years it was inevitable.

Your attempt to twist the (completely valid) point made before yours is noted

Whether you actually missed the point, or you understand it but chose to twist it, I cannot be certain. Either way, it is concerning.

Do you think the standard of living for the average Jewish Israeli is in any way remotely comparable to the standard of living endured by people of other religions who live in areas that are being bombed, oppressed or controlled by Israel?

Also what are your thoughts regarding this statement from Myriam Margoyles..?

Hello, I’m Miriam Margolyes, and I wanted to say something in support of the Jewish Council of Australia. I’m an Australian citizen. I’m 83 and I have never been so ashamed of Israel as I am at this moment. To me, it seems as if Hitler has won.

He’s changed us Jews from being compassionate and caring and do unto others as you would have them do unto you into this vicious genocidal nationalist nation, pursuing and killing women and children.

Of course, I condemn the Hamas action, of course I do. But what we are doing, Jewish people over in Israel, is shocking, embarrassing and wicked and I cannot understand why all Jewish people, particularly members of synagogues, do not want immediately to stop what is going on.

And in the name of humanity, I call upon all Jews to shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire.

It is not antisemitic to have a different opinion on the wartime actions now. We have to do, as my mother used to say, the right thing; the right thing is a ceasefire to stop the killing, certainly to beg and insist on the release of hostages. But there is an opinion about Israel’s actions, which it is not antisemitic to voice. What Israel is doing is wrong, it is wicked.

And, if you want to say this, is very bad for Israel. Please call on your rabbis, on your communities, on all the people you know. Voice your disgust and detestation of the Israeli actions. Please. You are then doing the right thing and behaving in accordance to the Jewish tradition.

Thank you.

I think it is absolutely spot on, as well as being a courageous act, as no doubt she will have received some abuse for saying this.

There are many good Jewish people who courageously speak out against the far right regime in Israel, and they deserve to be listened to.

 

[GusB]

Do you stand by your statement that Israel can not ‘whine’ about other nations wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth. Really?

I think I've made my opinions clear throughout this thread. I will not entertain your demands for me to stand by any statement I make.

How do you expect the Palestinians to react when they’ve been oppressed for so long? If Israel actually worked with the Palestinians instead of oppressing them the way they have, support for Hamas would dwindle and thus terrorism would die. That’s the only way you can really defeat terrorism. It’s an apartheid state, there are countless human rights organisations calling them out for decades no matter how much you try to ignore or dismiss it.

Exactly this. Oppressed people have a right to resist their oppressors. I don't agree with the methods used by Hamas etc. (and I really shouldn't have to re-iterate this every time I post here). When people have their backs up against the wall, there's nowhere to go and there's a regime that is focussed on either wiping you out or expelling you from your home while the world watches on, what choice do you have?

So to be clear: do you support Hamas/Iran in their threat to wipe out over 7 million Jews?

Once again, you're asking us to clarify where we stand. Where do you really stand in this conflict when Israel is actually wiping out tens of thousands of Palestinians?

As I am sure you know well, there have been multiple attempts to create a state for the Palestinians, all of which their leaders have rejected.

It would be useful if you could provide a source for these claims.

Here’s are the main features of the deal the Palestinian leadership walked away from in the Clinton era Camp David negotiations:

• A Palestinian state in 91% of the West Bank, and all of Gaza, with a 1% land swap.

Why not 100% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, with all of the settled land being returned to Palestine according to the 1967 boundaries?

• Israeli control of the shared airspace.

Yeah right. Israel controls the airspace, so it gets to decide who enters and exits the Palestinian territories.

• Israeli evacuation of all settlements in the new Palestinian state.

You might want to have a word with Smotrich...

Bezalel Smotrich - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Smotrich is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, living in the settlement of Kedumim, which is illegal under international law. His residence was also built illegally outside the settlement proper.[3]

Smotrich's statements, often dubbed "racist" and "homophobic," have led to several controversies.[4] He is a supporter of expanding Israeli settlements in the West Bank, opposes Palestinian statehood, and denies the existence of the Palestinian people.[4] As minister with powers in the occupied Palestinian territories, he has led clandestine Israeli efforts to annex territories in the West Bank, first as a fait accompli, then by force of law.[5][6]

I would have quoted the original [3] source, but it's behind a paywall.

I must emphasise, yet again, I lay no blame at the door of the ordinary Palestinian civilians. What they have suffered in this war is beyond appalling. What they suffered under Hamas was also appalling.

You may not be laying the blame at the door of ordinary Palestinian civilians, but nor are you condemning the horrendous acts that are being committed against them. I'm also not sure whether you're completely unaware of the atrocities that are happening in Gaza, or just ignoring them completely.

Palestinians will not be allowed to return to homes in northern Gaza, says IDF

Brig Gen Itzik Cohen said in a briefing that few people now remain in the north of the Gaza Strip

www.theguardian.com

Israeli ground forces are getting closer to “the complete evacuation” of northern Gaza and residents will not be allowed to return home, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said, in what appears to be the first official acknowledgment from Israel it is systematically removing Palestinians from the area.

In a media briefing on Tuesday night, the IDF Brig Gen Itzik Cohen told Israeli reporters that since troops had been forced to enter some areas twice, such as Jabaliya camp, “there is no intention of allowing the residents of the northern Gaza Strip to return to their homes”.

He added that humanitarian aid would be allowed to “regularly” enter the south of the territory but not the north, since there are “no more civilians left”.

International humanitarian law experts have said that such actions would amount to the war crimes of forcible transfer and the use of food as a weapon.

"complete evacutation", "not being allowed to return home" and "there are 'no more civilians left'". This is ethnic cleansing.

The Israeli army and government have repeatedly denied trying to force the remaining population of northern Gaza to flee to the relative safety of the south during a month-long renewed offensive and tightened siege. Residents still clinging on in the north have said the new operation has created the worst conditions of the war to date. Israel said the push is necessary to combat regrouped Hamas cells.

Rights groups and aid agencies have alleged that despite the denials, Israel appears to be carrying out a version of the so-called “generals’ plan”, which proposes giving civilians a deadline to leave and then treating anyone who remains as a combatant.

It is unclear how many people remain in northern Gaza; last month, the UN estimated there were about 400,000 civilians unable or unwilling to follow Israeli evacuation orders. On Wednesday social media footage showed waves of several dozen displaced people carrying children and rucksacks and walking south through flattened areas of Gaza City.

400,000 civilians, now classed as combatants because they can't leave. That gives the IDF carte-blanche to kill as they see fit.

Israel cut the territory in two earlier this year by creating what it calls the Netzarim corridor, separating what was once the densely populated Gaza City from the rest of the strip. In Tuesday’s briefing, Cohen also confirmed that northern Gaza has now been split again, to divide Gaza City from the more rural north.

Resettling or permanently reoccupying Gaza is not official Israeli policy, but senior Israeli defence officials recently told the Israeli daily Haaretz that with no other alternatives on the table, the government is aiming to annex large parts of the territory.

It's nothing but a land-grab. Why should anyone negotiate with these people? Concede a bit here a bit there and it won't be too long before the Zionists are coming back for more.

I think it is absolutely spot on, as well as being a courageous act, as no doubt she will have received some abuse for saying this.

There are many good Jewish people who courageously speak out against the far right regime in Israel, and they deserve to be listened to.

There are many good Jewish people who speak out against this nonsense and I will stand with them. Unfortunately it seems that the Zionist lunatics have the loudest voices and have a greater influence over our politicians. That makes me very sad.

 

[sjpowermac]

I would never treat you differently, it’s just that it explains why someone may be biased and have certain opinions like another member admitted on this thread.

Thank you for clarifying, that’s most appreciated. It seemed a bit of an odd statement to make.

Having resolved this, I’m happy to share with you that I’m not from Israel, I have no business interests in Israel and I’m not Jewish either.

My only connect with the Jewish people was a great uncle who came to the UK as a child orphan and who my family adopted. He was orphaned because of one of the Arab expulsions of Jews. He died when I was 12 years old and at that age I did not really have much interest in the Arab/Israeli conflict. His background was never discussed, he was just a member of the family who happened to both look and sound a bit different. He became a Christian.

I’m actually not at all blindly ‘pro-Israel’, but I do think the debate in this thread has been really quick to condemn Israel whilst largely ignoring the failings of Hamas and totally ignoring Iran’s role in this.

It’s not that I empathise or understand, it’s more of a case of it’s inevitable that when a group of people have been oppressed for so long, resistance groups, including opportunistic ones looking to exploit the situation, are going to form.

I appreciate the cordial conservation and wish you a goodnight.

Again, thank you for clarifying and very much agreed about the cordial conversation.

 

[nw1]

No, I don’t believe that we do differ on this point. At no point did I condone the killing of any civilians.

What I did say was that I stand with Israel and their right to defend themselves.

I do wonder though if any country would have simply ignored the events of 7th October 2023? Or the promise of Hamas to come back and in their own words ‘carry out many more October 7ths’.

Quite how Israel should have tackled an enemy that routinely embeds itself amongst a civilian population, that’s a much more difficult question.

So is indiscriminate bombing "in the hope that it might just kill some Hamas terrorists" (but then again it might not) a valid response?

Or is sitting down with the Palestinians and understanding what they want (which I am sure would be the approach of the Israeli left) be a better solution? It seems to be clearly the case that the Israeli right have caused nothing but trouble over the past 50 years, whereas the Israeli left have often done good.

The response of Netanyahu is just going to breed more terrorism. This is clear. It's not true that Hamas are the only terrorists that matter, what good is wiping out Hamas if you get twice as many terrorists from some other new group as a result? People being bombed to death are far more likely to behave irrationally and support extreme militants. If he wants to save Israeli lives in the future , he should stop the bombing now. But I don't think it's going to change with his best mate Donald in power, we really need elections in Israel fast and a new, sensible government in place, ideally from the parties of the left.

 

[sjpowermac]

Agreed. And as the Jews have been oppressed for 5000 years it was inevitable.

This is a point that is often overlooked.

I think it is right and proper that the behaviour of Israel is examined and there have been many failings, which I think both of us have noted.

What is striking though is that the behaviour of Hamas towards the Palestinians receives no mention.

I find this really odd. Sinward was not known as ‘The Butcher of Khan Younis’ for no reason.

Doubtless I’ll be accused of ‘whataboutary’ but another odd thing is how little coverage there is in the media, how few protests there are and how there’s no thread here on the war in Yemen. There’s a conflict that has resulted in deaths an order of magnitude greater than in Gaza. Seemingly though, nobody cares.

For the avoidance of doubt, I will state again, the number of civilian casualties in Gaza has been beyond tragic.

The failure of posters to attribute any fault to Iran or Hamas I think shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2024 ==

So is indiscriminate bombing "in the hope that it might just kill some Hamas terrorists" (but then again it might not) a valid response?

Or is sitting down with the Palestinians and understanding what they want (which I am sure would be the approach of the Israeli left) be a better solution? It seems to be clearly the case that the Israeli right have caused nothing but trouble over the past 50 years, whereas the Israeli left have often done good.

The response of Netanyahu is just going to breed more terrorism. This is clear. It's not true that Hamas are the only terrorists that matter, what good is wiping out Hamas if you get twice as many terrorists from some other new group as a result? People being bombed to death are far more likely to behave irrationally and support extreme militants. If he wants to save Israeli lives in the future , he should stop the bombing now. But I don't think it's going to change with his best mate Donald in power, we really need elections in Israel fast and a new, sensible government in place, ideally from the parties of the left.

I have said multiple times that the killing of civilians in Gaza is beyond tragic. I’m not sure how many more times I need to say it.

I still don’t believe though that after October 7th an Israeli government of any hue would have shrugged their shoulders and said to Hamas ‘come on guys, that was a bit daft, let’s have a cuppa and chat about what you want.’

The truth is that Hamas wants the Jewish people out of Palestine. That’s not much of a starter for ten in any negotiations.

 

[Acfb]

Unfortunately Israel seems to have gone down an irredeemably reactionary direction in the past 20 years (although I accept Israel made a few concessions before then etc) and it's not just Netenyahu but most of the 'zionist' opposition in Israel who I doubt has any interest in a two state solution either.

I don't see any happy ending for this 'conflict' but at least Trump is honest about his contempt for Palestinians/being willing to give Israel carte blanche etc unlike Biden etc.

 

[sjpowermac]

I will not entertain your demands for me to stand by any statement I make.

Making statements and not standing by them is an odd position, unless you have changed your opinion.

There are several possibilities and no you have not made clear your position.

a) I support Iran/Hamas in their threats to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

b) I do not support Iran/Hamas

c) I don’t support or condone Iran/Hamas, but understand where they are coming from

d) I don’t support Hamas/Iran but feel the conflict is inevitable

However, you cannot whine about other nations wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the earth while Israel continues its indiscriminate bombing and the nutcases in charge bang on about Palestinians being "human animals".

In your post here you are far from clear as to where you stand.

I’m happy to restate my position very clearly.

After October 7th 2023 where Hamas carried out the largest genocide of Jews since WW2 there was inevitably going to be a response from Israel. It’s a fantasy to think that this atrocity would lead to (immediate) peace talks.

In the wake of October 7th Hamas threaten to carry out ‘many more October 7ths’.

I do stand with Israel in their right to defend themselves.

Where it gets tricky is in the nature of that response. Hamas fighters routinely embed themselves amongst the civilian population. I don’t believe that Hamas have any regard for the lives of Palestinian civilians.

I don’t see things as ‘black and white’. I have acknowledged the multiple failings of Israel.

Do you acknowledge any failings on the part of Hamas (or Iran)?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Somehow Israeli football fans running riot though Amsterdam, chanting about killing Palestinian children and ripping down flags and then locals reacting badly to that has been turned into some kind of antisemitic horror by Israel and the media today. Utterly disgusting considering the "fans" were the instigators.

I have said multiple times that the killing of civilians in Gaza is beyond tragic

It isn't just beyond tragic though. It's a deliberate act by Israel. Tragic implies something a lot less deliberate / evil. If this was just "collateral damage" then it would still be much worse than just "beyond tragic" - but this is much more than that - this is deliberate targeting of the civilian population in an attempt to kill them or force them from their homes.

The truth is that Hamas wants the Jewish people out of Palestine

And Israel want the Palestinians out of Gaza. And are succeeding by killing them or destroying their homes.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have said multiple times that the killing of civilians in Gaza is beyond tragic. I’m not sure how many more times I need to say it.

Please do keep saying it. It's revealing that you hand-wringingly say "beyond tragic" to about 45,000 Palestinian deaths (a third of which are children and babies, and a third of which are women), 100,000 maimed or injured, and 10,000 missing. Yet you claim October 7th, a single atrocity claiming 1,100 lives in Israel is "genocide".

 

[nw1]

Somehow Israeli football fans running riot though Amsterdam, chanting about killing Palestinian children and ripping down flags and then locals reacting badly to that has been turned into some kind of antisemitic horror by Israel and the media today. Utterly disgusting considering the "fans" were the instigators.

Do you have a source for the former? (I'm not trying to deny it happened - just interested as the BBC for example barely mentions it).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Do you have a source for the former? (I'm not trying to deny it happened - just interested as the BBC for example barely mentions it).

The BBC are mentioning it, but queitly. And whilst I agree we need to take social media posts carefully, the fact the head of the police admits some of the Israeli fans were involved in carrying out the violence (rather than just being the victims) says a lot IMO.

Quotes from the BBC's live coverage and links:

Videos posted to social media appear to show Maccabi Tel Aviv fans chanting racist slogans about Arabs and Palestine, as well as climbing on a building to tear down a Palestinian flag on display.

Social media users said the videos were from before the attacks on Israelis. Footage from the stadium also appeared to show Maccabi fans jeering and whistling during a minute's silence for those killed in floods in Valencia.

The BBC is working to verify the videos. Some Maccabi Tel Aviv fans have previously been involved in racist incidents in Israel, including cursing at the team’s Palestinian and Arab players and reportedly applying pressure on the team to oust them.

Fans of the team have also previously attacked protesters demonstrating against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Amsterdam mayor condemns 'hit and run' attacks on Israeli football supporters

Five people were taken to hospital after violence flared up when Israeli football club Maccabi Tel Aviv was in the city.

www.bbc.co.uk

And

Peter Holla tells reporters in Amsterdam Maccabi supporters attacked a taxi and set a Palestinian flag on fire on Wednesday.

He says trouble continued into the early hours of Thursday.

Holla goes on to say that after the match on Thursday evening, Maccabi supporters were walking through the city centre and "rioters" carried out "hit-and-run" attacks targeting at the Israeli supporters.

Holla says it was "extremely difficult" for police to prevent this kind of "violence" - even though officers were there "in great numbers".

The Amsterdam police chief adds officers decided to "assemble" Maccabi supporters and "protect them" - taking them to hotels in coaches.

Amsterdam mayor condemns 'hit and run' attacks on Israeli football supporters

Five people were taken to hospital after violence flared up when Israeli football club Maccabi Tel Aviv was in the city.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[mr_jrt]

This editorial video on YouTube by the journalist Owen Jones has several clips of video of the incidents in Amsterdam referred to in recent posts that appear to have happened:

These include hooligans tearing down Palestinian flags, vile chanting about Arabs, and so forth.

 

[Trackman]

Posted without comment, this editorial video on YouTube by the journalist Owen Jones has several clips of video of the incidents in Amsterdam referred to in recent posts that appear to have

These include hooligans tearing down Palestinian flags, vile chanting about Arabs, and so forth.

Makes some good points, I don't believe anything the media says these days.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

This was the point I was trying to make earlier that I heard on a Piers Morgan interview that probably does a better job than I did:

“The reality is Hamas are a symptom of the problem. As long as you treat Hamas as the problem rather than symptom of the problem, you’re never going to get rid of Hamas. Or if you do by some fantasy means do get rid of Hamas, you’re just going to get another version of Hamas because now you’ve got tens of thousands of orphans, people who’ve lost their kids, their spouses, their siblings, you don’t think they’re going to fight in years to come?”

Israel are not stupid, this is not about defeating Hamas. This is an excuses to create a genocide and remove the Palestinians.

Unfortunately Israel seems to have gone down an irredeemably reactionary direction in the past 20 years (although I accept Israel made a few concessions before then etc) and it's not just Netenyahu but most of the 'zionist' opposition in Israel who I doubt has any interest in a two state solution either.

I don't see any happy ending for this 'conflict' but at least Trump is honest about his contempt for Palestinians/being willing to give Israel carte blanche etc unlike Biden etc.

And this is exactly why a lot of the pro-Palestinian voters decided to vote for Trump instead of Harris. It may seen strange but at least with Trump, you know where he stands and he’s not pretending or lying to you. Whereas the democrats pretend to be your friends but actually stab you in the back.

Joe Biden said this in 1986: “If there were not an Israel, we'd have to invent one.”

Not to say the republicans are much better. Nikki Haley was signing missiles when she went to Israel in May 2024 (attached picture). I’m not sure in what world that is okay no matter how pro-Israeli you are.

Somehow Israeli football fans running riot though Amsterdam, chanting about killing Palestinian children and ripping down flags and then locals reacting badly to that has been turned into some kind of antisemitic horror by Israel and the media today. Utterly disgusting considering the "fans" were the instigators.

Thank you for bringing this up. I wanted to but didn’t do so because I didn’t want to be accused of being antisemitic. The main stream media are talking about how “Israeli fans were attacked by Palestinian mob“ or “Israeli fans being hunted“ yet completely ignore that they were chanting “No schools left in Gaza because no children are left and death to Arabs,” screaming and whistling while people were paying silent tribute to the victims of the Valencia flood and ripping Palestinian flags from the homes of the locals there.

Do you have a source for the former? (I'm not trying to deny it happened - just interested as the BBC for example barely mentions it).

There are quite a few clips circulating but they’re really only being shown by left wing media such as the one posted above. Of course GB News are capitalising on this and saying how immigration has failed Europe and some of the news titles like “Israeli fans being hunted” or comparisons with the holocaust are utterly absurd.

 

[GusB]

Thank you for bringing this up. I wanted to but didn’t do so because I didn’t want to be accused of being antisemitic.

I had decided to make no further contributions here, but this is something that really needs to be brought up. Other than in the last few days, this thread has been remarkably quiet over the last few months. Why is that the case?

An accusation of being antisemitic is a big deal. People are afraid to express their views lest they be construed as being such, myself included. Every time I've posted here I've had to re-read what I've written to make sure that there's nothing that could be interpreted as antisemitic. I have every right to condemn the Israeli government's behaviour, but this should not be misinterpreted as a condemnation of Jewish people in general.

Also, trying to understand why one side acts in a particular way is often seen as support for that side. I empathise with the Palestinian population and I totally understand the need to resist the occupation of their land. This does not mean that I endorse the actions of Hamas.

It's also very difficult to speak out when anti-terrorism laws can be used to silence people who simply want to tell the truth.

 

[87electric]

Both sides want to obliterate the other. Never ending.

 

[MCR247]

I just hope one day there will be a Free Palestine.

The way the West rallies around Israel is very smelly and more and more people are noticing the stink. The events in Amsterdam and how they are reported on is a great example of this. Media says the Israelis are victims - it’s a shame everyone’s already seen them shouting “death to Arabs” and making light of bombing schools in Gaza. Oh and what’s that? They were still doing similar chants on arriving back in Israel? Victims where

 

[nw1]

I had decided to make no further contributions here, but this is something that really needs to be brought up. Other than in the last few days, this thread has been remarkably quiet over the last few months. Why is that the case?

An accusation of being antisemitic is a big deal. People are afraid to express their views lest they be construed as being such, myself included. Every time I've posted here I've had to re-read what I've written to make sure that there's nothing that could be interpreted as antisemitic. I have every right to condemn the Israeli government's behaviour, but this should not be misinterpreted as a condemnation of Jewish people in general.

Also, trying to understand why one side acts in a particular way is often seen as support for that side. I empathise with the Palestinian population and I totally understand the need to resist the occupation of their land. This does not mean that I endorse the actions of Hamas.

It's also very difficult to speak out when anti-terrorism laws can be used to silence people who simply want to tell the truth.

Indeed. The Israeli right and their supporters wish to, Soviet-style, silence their critics by labelling them as anti-Semitic.

This is of course blatantly illogical and inconsistent with dislike of other authoritarian and extreme leaders.

If you dislike Erdogan, you are neither Turkophobic nor Islamophobic. Everyone except for nationalist fanatics would agree.

If you dislike Mugabe, you are not an anti-Black racist. Everyone would agree apart from Mugabe and ZANU's biggest fans.

So why, if you dislike Netanyahu and his actions, are you anti-Semitic?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2024 ==

The BBC are mentioning it, but queitly. And whilst I agree we need to take social media posts carefully, the fact the head of the police admits some of the Israeli fans were involved in carrying out the violence (rather than just being the victims) says a lot IMO.

Quotes from the BBC's live coverage and links:

Thanks for the quotes/sources.