2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[nw1]

OK so I accept that you feel Israel has no right to exist. I think you mentioned in one of your rants that you would include Jewish people in your Israel Mk2. Is that right? If so, how would you propose to protect them?

Protect them from whom? Likud?

 

[brad465]

What do you feel would have been an appropriate response by Israel to the events of 7th October 2023?

What would it be then?

I would have pushed Hamas' forces back into Gaza, but then stopped there and worked towards a two-state solution or whatever it takes for more lasting peace. Israel received a lot of sympathy for the 7th October events, but their OTT reaction saw that evaporate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2024 ==

The price of oil has surged after Biden said the possibility of Israel striking Iran's oil facilities is under discussion. Is he trying to lose the election for Harris?

 

[AlterEgo]

I would have pushed Hamas' forces back into Gaza, but then stopped there and worked towards a two-state solution or whatever it takes for more lasting peace. Israel received a lot of sympathy for the 7th October events, but their OTT reaction saw that evaporate.

Quite. Most people feel incredible sympathy for the American people for 9/11, but would stop short of suggesting America's expeditionary wars of regime change in the Middle East - and the "collateral" - were justified.

In fact, nobody ever dared say "Well you know, if Al-Qaeda had the *capacity*, what would they do to America and its people? Have you read their manifesto?" because they perfectly well knew how the cards were stacked, just as they are in the current situation with Israel.

 

[nw1]

Quite. Most people feel incredible sympathy for the American people for 9/11, but would stop short of suggesting America's expeditionary wars of regime change in the Middle East - and the "collateral" - were justified.

Indeed, in my case shock at 9/11 turned quickly to anger at Bush's antics in Afghanistan - even before Iraq happened.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I really wonder how this is going to end, it really doesn’t show any signs of slowing down.

 

[Russel]

I really wonder how this is going to end, it really doesn’t show any signs of slowing down.

Yeah, same, all we're seeing is escalation, I can't see how it will end...

 

[mr_jrt]

End is subjective. "It", with "It" being defined as the current hot phase, will end when Israel loses backing from the US, or meets its objectives. It's not losing backing from the US anytime soon, so most likely it will end when they decide their objectives are met. Given the power disparity, the ball is, and always has been, in Israel's court. Which is why the burden of responsibility to act with restraint falls more with them than their opponents.

I suspect the wider conflict will only end when one of the major actors in it stops existing in their current form, be that Israel, Iran, or the United States. Otherwise, it just continues bubbling on ad infinitum.

Israel apparently hitting a Russian military base in Syria a few days ago certainly spices things up a tad, but I suspect Russia has enough on its plate to not be able to care right now.

 

[AlterEgo]

I suspect the wider conflict will only end when one of the major actors in it stops existing in their current form, be that Israel, Iran, or the United States. Otherwise, it just continues bubbling on ad infinitum.

Of these, I think Iran seems more likely to undergo a revolution than either of the others.

 

[nw1]

End is subjective. "It", with "It" being defined as the current hot phase, will end when Israel loses backing from the US, or meets its objectives. It's not losing backing from the US anytime soon, so most likely it will end when they decide their objectives are met. Given the power disparity, the ball is, and always has been, in Israel's court. Which is why the burden of responsibility to act with restraint falls more with them than their opponents.

I suspect the wider conflict will only end when one of the major actors in it stops existing in their current form, be that Israel, Iran, or the United States. Otherwise, it just continues bubbling on ad infinitum.

Israel apparently hitting a Russian military base in Syria a few days ago certainly spices things up a tad, but I suspect Russia has enough on its plate to not be able to care right now.

The US could really help by being non-partisan. They really should not be blindly supporting Israel as if they have done no wrong. Threatening to break diplomatic ties if they carry out any further escalatory action would be an appropriate sanction from the US, and might force Netanyahu to start behaving himself.

If either US candidate goes for a more dispassionate, non-partisan line I suspect that would be an election-winning tactic. (Let's hope it's not Trump, though!)

 

[brad465]

I really wonder how this is going to end, it really doesn’t show any signs of slowing down.

The move on Hizbollah in Lebanon has rallied support for Netanyahu, that was previously failing, so it won't end while support is high at home. The operation suddenly going badly, such as high Israeli casualties and/or a stalemate, would see that support wane and the end look likely.

If Trump gets in I can see one or both of two things happen: the conflict escalates further, particularly if they sense regime change in Iran being realistic, but he also will want it to end quickly so will want a deal ASAP. I wouldn’t be surprised if that deal includes amnesty for Netanyahu, given his looming corruption charges are a major reason the war I'd still ongoing, even though that would be morally wrong.

If Harris gets in it's possible a quick end will also follow, but I think she will be more firm in restraining the IDF in doing so as she doesn't come across as Zionist as Biden.

 

[Ediswan]

I note that Israel appear to have widened who they consider to be a legitimate target from 'fighters' to 'operatives'.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-s...-killed-in-southern-lebanon-ground-offensive/

IDF says over 250 Hezbollah operatives killed in southern Lebanon ground offensive​

 

[brad465]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result:

Netanyahu warns Lebanon of 'destruction like Gaza'

Benjamin Netanyahu's appeal came as Israel expanded its ground invasion against Hezbollah.

www.bbc.co.uk

Israel's prime minister has made a direct appeal to urge the Lebanese people to throw out Hezbollah and avoid "destruction and suffering like we see in Gaza".
Benjamin Netanyahu's appeal on Tuesday came as Israel expanded its ground invasion against Hezbollah by sending thousands more troops into a new zone in south-west Lebanon.
Netanyahu also claimed the Israel Defense Forces had killed the successor to Hezbollah's former leader, Hassan Nasrallah, but the IDF later said it could not confirm Hashem Safieddine's death.
Elsewhere, Hezbollah's fighters launched barrages of rockets towards the Israeli port city of Haifa for the third consecutive day, injuring 12 people.

During a video address directed at the people of Lebanon, Netanyahu said: "You have an opportunity to save Lebanon before it falls into the abyss of a long war that will lead to destruction and suffering like we see in Gaza.
"I say to you, the people of Lebanon: Free your country from Hezbollah so that this war can end."
Hezbollah has remained defiant despite three weeks of intense Israeli strikes and other attacks that Lebanese officials say have killed more than 1,400 people and displaced another 1.2 million.
Earlier on Tuesday Hassan Nasrallah's former deputy, Naim Qassem, insisted Hezbollah had overcome the recent “painful blows” from Israel and that its capabilities were “fine”.
Israel has gone on the offensive after almost a year of cross-border fighting sparked by the war in Gaza, saying it wants to ensure the safe return of tens of thousands of residents of Israeli border areas displaced by Hezbollah rocket, missile and drone attacks.
The hostilities have escalated steadily since Hezbollah began firing rockets into northern Israel in support of Palestinians on 8 October 2023, the day after its ally Hamas’s deadly attack on southern Israel.

 

[GusB]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result:

Netanyahu warns Lebanon of 'destruction like Gaza'

Benjamin Netanyahu's appeal came as Israel expanded its ground invasion against Hezbollah.

www.bbc.co.uk

Netanyahu is completely unhinged and the sooner he's removed, the better.

Whether or not the general Lebanese population is happy with the existence of Hezbollah, his rhetoric isn't exactly going to win over people who have been displaced from their homes and he's going to end up making a whole new set of enemies.

As long as he's in power there will be no peace for Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon; more importantly, there will never be any peace for the Israelis.

 

[sjpowermac]

Netanyahu is completely unhinged and the sooner he's removed, the better.

Whether or not the general Lebanese population is happy with the existence of Hezbollah, his rhetoric isn't exactly going to win over people who have been displaced from their homes and he's going to end up making a whole new set of enemies.

As long as he's in power there will be no peace for Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon; more importantly, there will never be any peace for the Israelis.

Any thoughts on the leadership of Iran? How about the leadership of Hamas, or Hezbollah?

 

[Ediswan]

IDF have fired on UN peacekeepers in Lebanon.
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-824099

Israeli forces fired tank shell at UN peacekeeper position in Lebanon, UN source reports​

 

[nw1]

Any thoughts on the leadership of Iran? How about the leadership of Hamas, or Hezbollah?

Not relevant to the discussion, which is the rights and wrongs of the Israeli government's actions, specifically.

The real issue is how the West refuse to condemn the Israeli government nearly enough.

Bombing Beirut and killing 22 innocent people is the height of arrogance. 22 people killed by Government agents of a foreign state bombing their capital city.

Shooting UN peacekeepers, with allegations (in today's Guardian) that it might have been deliberate.

If any other state, apart from the USA, did the same, there would be far more condemnation. The West seems to be positively prejudiced towards the Israeli government and I don't understand why.

We must be dispassionate in this conflict. We need to condemn both sides equally, not just one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result:

Netanyahu warns Lebanon of 'destruction like Gaza'

Benjamin Netanyahu's appeal came as Israel expanded its ground invasion against Hezbollah.

www.bbc.co.uk

Who does he think he is, lecturing the Lebanese people about what they can and cannot do? He seems to think he owns Lebanon.

 

[AM9]

Who does he think he is, lecturing the Lebanese people about what they can and cannot do? He seems to think he owns Lebanon.

He wants his own holocaust.

 

[uglymonkey]

He is dangerous, wanting all out war to stay in power.

 

[nw1]

He is dangerous, wanting all out war to stay in power.

Indeed, he comes across as something of a psychopath. I think he has more in common with Putin than his supporters would like to admit.

 

[Acfb]

I'm quite concerned about all this sabre rattling against Iran and it's not just coming from the Neocons and Trump.

The West should be calling out both Israel and Iran and trying to properly defuse things.

We seemed to have regressed over the past few years since Trump tore up Obama's deal with Iran.

 

[AM9]

We seemed to have regressed over the past few years since Trump tore up Obama's deal with Iran.

There, I've corrected that for you.

 

[sjpowermac]

Not relevant to the discussion, which is the rights and wrongs of the Israeli government's actions, specifically.

If that is true, perhaps you might like to get the admin team to change the thread title to better reflect this.

I would suggest something along the lines of ‘An echo chamber to condemn Israel’ would fit the contents of the thread perfectly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

I'm quite concerned about all this sabre rattling against Iran and it's not just coming from the Neocons and Trump.

The West should be calling out both Israel and Iran and trying to properly defuse things.

We seemed to have regressed over the past few years since Trump tore up Obama's deal with Iran.

Do you think the Middle East would be more secure, or less secure if Iran had a nuclear bomb? In fact, would you care to comment on the security of Western nations in the scenario where Iran had the bomb?

 

[nw1]

If that is true, perhaps you might like to get the admin team to change the thread title to better reflect this.

I would suggest something along the lines of ‘An echo chamber to condemn Israel’ would fit the contents of the thread perfectly.

So do you not condemn the government of Israel for shooting UN peacekeepers and bombing civilians in foreign capitals? For killing tens of thousands of Gazan civilians?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

Do you think the Middle East would be more secure, or less secure if Iran had a nuclear bomb? In fact, would you care to comment on the security of Western nations in the scenario where Iran had the bomb?

I suspect Iran are more likely, not less, to take retaliatory action the way Netanyahu is behaving and the way the West is refusing to condemn him robustly enough. So, yes, the West is less secure thanks to Netanyahu's actions of self-interest. For this reason alone, never mind the multitude of others, the West needs to be more robustly critical of him and his government, including the threat of sanctions if he refuses to behave.

And I also suspect that a lot of Iran's militancy and aggression is down to the West's prolonged and repeated partisanship and lack of respect of many of the local peoples in the region. If we start acting more dispassionately, then maybe so will Iran.

 

[Falcon1200]

Very sad, and wrong, that UN Peacekeepers were fired at, but given Hezbollah's apparently unchallenged attacks on Israel, from Lebanon, what was the point and benefit of them being there in the first place?

 

[ainsworth74]

And I also suspect that a lot of Iran's militancy and aggression is down to the West's prolonged and repeated partisanship and lack of respect of many of the local peoples in the region. If we start acting more dispassionately, then maybe so will Iran.

We, and in particular the US, certainly haven't helped the situation but you need only have a glance around at how Iran's neighbours feel about Iran to realise that even if we had taken a more neutral and less interventionist course that under it's present Government Iran would still be causing serious concerns for regional stability and security and the idea of Iran gaining a nuclear weapon would be extremely concerning and likely lead to serious nuclear proliferation extremely quickly.

Very sad, and wrong, that UN Peacekeepers were fired at, but given Hezbollah's apparently unchallenged attacks on Israel, from Lebanon, what was the point and benefit of them being there in the first place?

You'd have to ask the UN Security Council that set the mission in motion and set the conditions under which they operate.

 

[nw1]

We, and in particular the US, certainly haven't helped the situation but you need only have a glance around at how Iran's neighbours feel about Iran to realise that even if we had taken a more neutral and less interventionist course that under it's present Government Iran would still be causing serious concerns for regional stability and security and the idea of Iran gaining a nuclear weapon would be extremely concerning and likely lead to serious nuclear proliferation extremely quickly.

Maybe but even still, Western neutrality will presumably help the situation. I can't see any amelioration of Iran's aggression resulting from the West's soft attitude towards the Israeli government.

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe but even still, Western neutrality will presumably help the situation. I can't see any amelioration of Iran's aggression resulting from the West's soft attitude towards the Israeli government.

It would probably help but there remains quite fundamental ideological differences that mean that I doubt we'd ever be able to be seen as anything other than an opponent of the Iranian government and it's goals by the Iranian government. It would be, in my opinion, unwise to assume that the reason Iran is a problem in the Middle East is because of Western interference.

 

[GusB]

If that is true, perhaps you might like to get the admin team to change the thread title to better reflect this.

I would suggest something along the lines of ‘An echo chamber to condemn Israel’ would fit the contents of the thread perfectly.

People are condemning Israel because it's carrying out actions that are completely disproportionate to those that have been carried out against it. I'm not denying that what happened on the 7th October 2023 was an atrocity and that those behind those actions should be brought to justice, but you seem to be quite happy to see the entirety of Gaza destroyed. You do not seem to care that most of the people killed in those "targeted" strikes are completely innocent and have nothing to do with Hamas.

We can say the same for people in Lebanon; neighbourhoods are being levelled because there may be a slight chance that a Hezbollah fighter might live there and sod the rest of the residents, regardless whether or not they have any connection to the militants.

Israel is taking advantage of the fact that it has support from the West; if any other nation was bullying neighbouring countries and people within its own borders to the same extent, there would rightfully be an outcry. Remove that external support and it might not feel so bold.

There's "an echo chamber to condemn Israel" because it has consistently ignored UN resolutions regarding the settlement of Palestinian territories and it's committing genocide.

Do you think the Middle East would be more secure, or less secure if Iran had a nuclear bomb? In fact, would you care to comment on the security of Western nations in the scenario where Iran had the bomb?

I don't believe that nuclear weapons make anyone secure but if Iran actually did have the bomb, you can bet your bottom dollar that Israel would be thinking twice about its air strikes. Our reason for having nuclear weapons is deterrence - why is it any different for Iran, or any other nation that has them? We tend to think twice about dealing with rogue nations when they have the ultimate deterrent - see North Korea.

 

[AlterEgo]

If that is true, perhaps you might like to get the admin team to change the thread title to better reflect this.

I would suggest something along the lines of ‘An echo chamber to condemn Israel’ would fit the contents of the thread perfectly.

Oh the contrary, your post reads as if you are willing to support and justify Israel’s ongoing genocide and apartheid. It seems like an echo chamber to you because you are a dissenting voice.

 

[brad465]

People are condemning Israel because it's carrying out actions that are completely disproportionate to those that have been carried out against it. I'm not denying that what happened on the 7th October 2023 was an atrocity and that those behind those actions should be brought to justice, but you seem to be quite happy to see the entirety of Gaza destroyed. You do not seem to care that most of the people killed in those "targeted" strikes are completely innocent and have nothing to do with Hamas.

The ICC in effect recognises this, as the chief prosecutor requested 5 arrest warrants, two for Israeli leadership (Netanyahu and Defence Minister Gallant), plus three for Hamas' leadership. However it's now looking more one-sided because the IDF have managed to assassinate 2 out of 3* of Hamas' members wanted by the ICC.

*There's speculation they got the third too, but not confirmed IIRC.