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Completely disagree. Patronising those who vote in that way - as you are doing - is not the answer. It only serves to further the far right’s agenda of creating division.
Far better to explain to those who vote for the far right how they are being conned by organisations that only have their own interests at heart.
It seems to me that the level of intelligence the Israelis seem to have, suggests that Hezbollah has been well and truly penetrated and has moles inside it leaking information. Hamas not so much.
It seems to me that the level of intelligence the Israelis seem to have, suggests that Hezbollah has been well and truly penetrated and has moles inside it leaking information. Hamas not so much.
America also continues to look toothless - I almost wonder which end of the leash is held by Israel and which is held by Washington. How much influence do Zionist factions have within the Democratic party? (And what would the situation be with Republicans? Ignoring the Trump Factor for the time being.)
America also continues to look toothless - I almost wonder which end of the leash is held by Israel and which is held by Washington. How much influence do Zionist factions have within the Democratic party? (And what would the situation be with Republicans? Ignoring the Trump Factor for the time being.)
New York both city and state, have a very high Jewish population. They tend to vote Democrat. Trump’s daughter, son in law and 3 of his grandchildren are Jewish. I don’t think you can ignore the Trump factor.
America also continues to look toothless - I almost wonder which end of the leash is held by Israel and which is held by Washington. How much influence do Zionist factions have within the Democratic party? (And what would the situation be with Republicans? Ignoring the Trump Factor for the time being.)
Republicans are even more pro-Israel than the Democrats. What's also noticeable is that Trump talks about wanting Ukraine to settle with Russia, but you don't hear him saying Israel should settle with Hamas and/or Hezbollah (or if he does it's not as prominent). There are even rumours that Trump has tried to persuade Netanyahu to not adopt any deal settled before the election as a means to try and thwart the Democrats' chances in the election, and/or allow him to achieve a deal to enhance his own reputation.
New York both city and state, have a very high Jewish population. They tend to vote Democrat. Trump’s daughter, son in law and 3 of his grandchildren are Jewish. I don’t think you can ignore the Trump factor.
What's also noticeable is that Trump talks about wanting Ukraine to settle with Russia, but you don't hear him saying Israel should settle with Hamas and/or Hezbollah (or if he does it's not as prominent).
In your opinion, what would Israel ‘settling with Hezbollah’ look like?
Since its foundation Hezbollah has been dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That would seem like a pretty entrenched negotiating position that it would be difficult to ‘settle’ with.
I wonder if the conflict would end if Hezbollah were to back up their forces to the far side of the Litani river, allowing 70 000 Israelis to return home to northern Israel?
At the end of the second Lebanese war in 2006 a UN peacekeeping force were supposed to help the Lebanese army keep the south of the country protected from "unauthorised armed personnel, such as Hezbollah.” That particular UN resolution does not appear to have been successful.
I’m all for peaceful settlement and I hope that agreement can be found.
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People don't need to like or agree with Netanyahu to think that striking Hezbollah is a good thing. Hezbollah corruption and militarism has driven Lebanon to the brink.
Do you accept there is a huge power imbalance, with the far-right Israeli regime causing many times more devastation to civilians than the paramiltary groups / resistance movements they are fighting against?
Naturally I respect your right to call Hamas and Hezbollah ‘paramilitary groups/resistance movements’, but I’m genuinely curious to know your views on what happened on 7th October 2023.
I’m not convinced that there is such a huge power imbalance between Israel and Hezbollah.
At the end of the second Lebanese war, Hezbollah did not disarm after the Israeli withdrawal from South Lebanon, in contravention of UN Security Council resolution 1701. Instead they created a state within a state and with the help of Iran amassed an arsenal of 150 000+ rockets and missiles.
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Indeed, it should not exist. Israel should be dismantled and a new political entity formed. Note that this does not mean I think “all the Jews should leave”, but rather a multi ethnic and tolerant democracy should replace Israel.
That’s a really interesting point that I’ve been trying to think through since I read your post a few days ago.
Do you have in mind a country in the Middle East that this Israel replacement could be modelled on?
When Israel left Gaza in 2005, I hoped that the people there would have a fair chance of creating a better future. The Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza that followed was awful.
I do wonder though what might have happened there had Hamas not come to power in 2007.
It will be interesting to see what happens next there and I hope that all sides can rebuild and live in peace.
The moron you refer to? Netanyahu I assume? The decisions he has made now and over the years are being quite rightly condemned by many people. The man is a warmonger. I do however find the idea that he is the sole person responsible (as you appear to be suggesting) to be rather fanciful.
Yes - the moron I'm referring to is Netanyahu. He may not be solely responsible for the atrocities that are being committed, but he's in charge and that's where the buck stops.
Since its foundation Hezbollah has been dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That would seem like a pretty entrenched negotiating position that it would be difficult to ‘settle’ with.
I keep reading comments saying that Hezbollah/Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of Israel, but Israel has made it very clear that certain members of its population aren't welcome. If it wanted to take steps towards ending this conflict, it would not be supporting the continuing settlement of land that it has no right to, nor would it not be preventing the return of Palestinian refugees to their homes and defying UN resolutions. You talk about entrenched negotiating positions?!
I don't agree with the methods that Hamas and Hezbollah use, but put yourself in the shoes of someone who is trapped in a land where you have no rights and can be detained at any time and for any reason. You can't work unless the goon at the checkpoint is in a good enough mood to let you get to through to your workplace on any given day. You can't even vote to change things because you're not a citizen, despite it being your home and having every right to be there. Someone else covets the land that you own and decides that they want to send the bulldozers in and evict your from your home and remove your livelihood with no compensation.
You have no hope and no future. You can try to resist as much as you like, but you're likely to be detained or shot if you do and any collective action is considered as terrorism. Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on and nothing is done to stop it. What would you do in such a situation?
For a bit of balance, I could put myself in the position of someone who lives on the other side of the wall. I can quite understand what it's like to live in fear of rockets from the other side. I'd want my government to do its best to protect me from harm and I'd probably want some retaliation against those who have caused harm against my people. However, I'd be really pissed off if my government continued with any actions that exacerbated the situation.
In a sane world, if I'd outgrown the space that I occupied I'd have to look at buying a bigger place. I wouldn't consider knocking through to my neighbour's property and claiming that space as my own, yet this is exactly what's going on in the occupied territories.
Of all the conflicts that I've witnessed in the five decades that I've been around, this is the one that keeps going on and on and on. No lessons have been learned and people are still suffering. I don't have a magic wand that I can wave to sort it all out but concessions will have to be made, otherwise it will continue to go on and on and on. I don't think a two-state solution is viable - there will always be border conflicts. Ideally a single-state solution where everyone is equal is the best option, but that's unacceptable to the hardliners.
I keep reading comments saying that Hezbollah/Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of Israel, but Israel has made it very clear that certain members of its population aren't welcome. If it wanted to take steps towards ending this conflict, it would not be supporting the continuing settlement of land that it has no right to, nor would it not be preventing the return of Palestinian refugees to their homes and defying UN resolutions. You talk about entrenched negotiating positions?!
I don't agree with the methods that Hamas and Hezbollah use, but put yourself in the shoes of someone who is trapped in a land where you have no rights and can be detained at any time and for any reason. You can't work unless the goon at the checkpoint is in a good enough mood to let you get to through to your workplace on any given day. You can't even vote to change things because you're not a citizen, despite it being your home and having every right to be there. Someone else covets the land that you own and decides that they want to send the bulldozers in and evict your from your home and remove your livelihood with no compensation.
You have no hope and no future. You can try to resist as much as you like, but you're likely to be detained or shot if you do and any collective action is considered as terrorism. Meanwhile, the rest of the world looks on and nothing is done to stop it. What would you do in such a situation?
For a bit of balance, I could put myself in the position of someone who lives on the other side of the wall. I can quite understand what it's like to live in fear of rockets from the other side. I'd want my government to do its best to protect me from harm and I'd probably want some retaliation against those who have caused harm against my people. However, I'd be really pissed off if my government continued with any actions that exacerbated the situation.
In a sane world, if I'd outgrown the space that I occupied I'd have to look at buying a bigger place. I wouldn't consider knocking through to my neighbour's property and claiming that space as my own, yet this is exactly what's going on in the occupied territories.
Of all the conflicts that I've witnessed in the five decades that I've been around, this is the one that keeps going on and on and on. No lessons have been learned and people are still suffering. I don't have a magic wand that I can wave to sort it all out but concessions will have to be made, otherwise it will continue to go on and on and on. I don't think a two-state solution is viable - there will always be border conflicts. Ideally a single-state solution where everyone is equal is the best option, but that's unacceptable to the hardliners.
I’m sure you know well that Hamas/Hezbollah are Iranian proxies. How bothered do you think Iran is about the plight of the Palestinians? There’s a lot of condemnation of Israel in this thread, but pretty much silence about Iran’s role in this.
The reason that you keep hearing that Hamas/Hezbollah are dedicated to the destruction of Israel is because their leaders, along with Iran, have stated this multiple times.
What kind of solution in Israel do you believe would be acceptable to Iran?
Regarding the rest of your post, much of it I agree with, particularly about one state solution and the need for change.
Do you think Israel has built a thriving modern economy? I wonder what Judea and Samaria, along with Gaza, would be like now if they were properly a part of Israel? I wonder if in time the Palestinians experienced prosperity that might be a route to peace?
There are undoubtedly faults on the Israeli side, many of which you have pointed out. What do you feel though about the Palestinian leaders and the multiple times they have been offered a settlement? Do you think the statement that they ‘never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity’ is a reasonable assessment?
If you have a moment, I would be interested to hear your views on Iran and their involvement in the conflict. My own opinion is that they certainly have not helped the situation, spreading chaos and darkness across the region. Prime Minister Netanyahu called it right with his map showing the influence of Iran to be a curse, though I didn’t agree with all the countries included in his blessings map!
I agree with you that in the long run, concessions will have to be made on all sides.
I’m sure you know well that Hamas/Hezbollah are Iranian proxies. How bothered do you think Iran is about the plight of the Palestinians? There’s a lot of condemnation of Israel in this thread, but pretty much silence about Iran’s role in this.
I'm well aware that they're Iranian proxies and I don't imagine that Iran is particularly bothered about the collateral damage - just like Israel doesn't give a stuff about who gets killed. However, it's the ordinary Lebanese people who are suffering simply because they're unfortunate enough to live in areas where Hezbollah has a presence. Sure, they can leave their homes as directed, but why the hell should they? It's not their fight.
I don't honestly know, but I think that Iran could be persuaded to hold back if Israel stopped settling in areas that it isn't entitled to. As long as the settlers continue to grab land that doesn't belong to them, driving out the native population in the process, there will be resistance to those actions. Do you accept that the constant land-grabbing and driving people from their homes is exacerbating the situation?
I will ask you again - if your neighbour decided that the land that they held wasn't enough and they decided to bulldoze into your property, would you stand by and let it happen? I think not. As long as Israel continues to displace people, the resistance will continue. I'll say it again - I don't agree with the methods of resistance that so-called terrorist organisations use, but when your back is up against the wall and you're facing an aggressor that's far more technologically advanced than you are, you'll use any methods at your disposal.
I'm well aware that they're Iranian proxies and I don't imagine that Iran is particularly bothered about the collateral damage - just like Israel doesn't give a stuff about who gets killed. However, it's the ordinary Lebanese people who are suffering simply because they're unfortunate enough to live in areas where Hezbollah has a presence. Sure, they can leave their homes as directed, but why the hell should they? It's not their fight.
Again, I agree with much of what you have written: it absolutely isn’t the fight of the ordinary Lebanese people. The UN failing to keep Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon and Hezbollah’s breaking of the 2006 ceasefire agreement has been a tragedy for the ordinary people of the region.
To suppose that Iran is the slightest bit interested in the plight of the civilians in the region is beyond naive. From 2005 to 2023 Israel withdrew completely from Gaza and yet that didn’t stop Iran from building up Hamas, effectively ending any chance of a viable state there. I’m sure you are well aware that the international community put billions of dollars of aid into the region, only for Hamas to spend it on terror tunnels, rockets and its own leaders.
I will ask you again - if your neighbour decided that the land that they held wasn't enough and they decided to bulldoze into your property, would you stand by and let it happen? I think not.
I'll say it again - I don't agree with the methods of resistance that so-called terrorist organisations use, but when your back is up against the wall and you're facing an aggressor that's far more technologically advanced than you are, you'll use any methods at your disposal.
Do you think that Israel would have invaded Gaza if the events of October 7th had not happened? It’s a genuine question. I personally think they would not.
Do you think Israel has built a thriving modern economy? I wonder what Judea and Samaria, along with Gaza, would be like now if they were properly a part of Israel? I wonder if in time the Palestinians experienced prosperity that might be a route to peace?
Do you think that Israel would have invaded Gaza if the events of October 7th had not happened? It’s a genuine question. I personally think they would not.
Do you think the USA would have invaded Afghanistan had September 11th not happened? No, but still - it did happen, and the US was quick to find an excuse. That was a humanitarian disaster, too.
In your opinion, what would Israel ‘settling with Hezbollah’ look like?
Since its foundation Hezbollah has been dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That would seem like a pretty entrenched negotiating position that it would be difficult to ‘settle’ with.
I wonder if the conflict would end if Hezbollah were to back up their forces to the far side of the Litani river, allowing 70 000 Israelis to return home to northern Israel?
At the end of the second Lebanese war in 2006 a UN peacekeeping force were supposed to help the Lebanese army keep the south of the country protected from "unauthorised armed personnel, such as Hezbollah.” That particular UN resolution does not appear to have been successful.
I’m all for peaceful settlement and I hope that agreement can be found.
I admittingly don't know what settling with them would look like at this stage. However my original post was about highlighting Trump's hypocrisy; I would say it's at least as difficult to negotiate with Putin, a leader who has form for violating past agreements and seems dedicated to the destruction of Ukraine, yet Trump thinks he can end that war in the long term by forcing Ukraine to cave into many of Putin's demands.
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Meanwhile another prominent leader in the Iran proxy world has been taken out:
Israel tells the US it plans to launch a limited ground incursion into Lebanon as soon as Monday, a US official says.
www.bbc.co.uk
Hamas says Lebanese leader killed in air strike
Palestinian militant group Hamas says Fateh Sherif Abu el-Amin, the group's leader in Lebanon, has been killed along with some family members in an Israeli air strike in southern Lebanon.
Hamas says he was killed in a strike "on his home in the Al-Bass camp in south Lebanon". The state-run Lebanese National News Agency reported an air strike on the camp near the southern city of Tyre.
Although Hamas is based in Gaza - where Israel has been fighting it since the 7 October attacks - it also has a presence in Lebanon.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah are backed and funded by Iran.
The danger here I think is the IDF get too carried away with killing all the top brass of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., then manage to take out someone who has Archduke Ferdinand 'vibes' (such as a senior Iranian politician).
Do you think that Israel would have invaded Gaza if the events of October 7th had not happened? It’s a genuine question. I personally think they would not.
Do you think the USA would have invaded Afghanistan had September 11th not happened? No, but still - it did happen, and the US was quick to find an excuse. That was a humanitarian disaster, too.
Of course. That was also, IMO, a completely disproportionate response, just like what has happened in Gaza. I was both disgusted with, and frightened by, the invasion of Afghanistan.
Of course. That was also, IMO, a completely disproportionate response, just like what has happened in Gaza. I was both disgusted with, and frightened by, the invasion of Afghanistan.
The danger here I think is the IDF get too carried away with killing all the top brass of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., then manage to take out someone who has Archduke Ferdinand 'vibes' (such as a senior Iranian politician).
When General Qasem Soleimani was shot down by the US over Iraqi airspace in an air strike a few years ago, Iran struck a US airbase carefully so as to not take anybody out. The matter was over.
When General Qasem Soleimani was shot down by the US over Iraqi airspace in an air strike a few years ago, Iran struck a US airbase carefully so as to not take anybody out. The matter was over.
That was four years ago and conducted by a different country. The Iranian regime hates Israel even more than the US (even though the two have a special relationship) and that general's death was in essence a standalone attack. However we're now, four years later, in the context of a wider conflict in the Middle East with Israel and Iran (via its proxies) fighting each other, while Israel is on a run of spree killings in the region of prominent organisation heads. Just because something turned out not so bad 4 years ago doesn't mean a similar incident now will go the same way.
The Iranian regime hates Israel even more than the US (even though the two have a special relationship) and that general's death was in essence a standalone attack.
I look at Sri Lanka and how the civil war there ended.
Once the government forces there had the upper hand in 2009 they kept going and they obliterated the LTTE- the Tamil Tigers. Sadly they also obliterated somewhere between 7,000 and 40,000 civilians in the last six months of the war with the excuse that the LTTE were hiding their weaponry in civilian areas and using civilians as human shields. Which is why they repeatedly shelled areas which had been previously been declared by them as safe zones. Sri Lankan forces systematically shelled hospitals and other facilities providing humanitarian aid.
Cue lots of hand-wringing from the UN but no investigation into what really happened.
The US in particular blocked, at every turn, an investigation into what really happened.
For everyone else, life moved on. 800,000 Tamils left for India and the Sinhalese majority in Sri Lanka were just glad that the suicide bombings stopped. I went to Sri Lanka on honeymoon in 2016 and it was safe; just best not to think too hard about how they reached that stage of safety.
I'm sure this all sounds very familiar.
I've always thought that this will end in exactly the same way it ended in Sri Lanka.
Edited to add: how Iran reacts to this will be fascinating. I strongly suspect that Iran is little more than a paper tiger these days. I think they're being cagey because they don't want to provoke a full-scale war because they know they would lose it.
… I notice that you have neatly sidestepped the question of pointing out a country in the Middle East that would serve as a model for the Israel Mk2 that you seem so keen on.
Do you think the USA would have invaded Afghanistan had September 11th not happened? No, but still - it did happen, and the US was quick to find an excuse. That was a humanitarian disaster, too.
… I notice that you have neatly sidestepped the question of pointing out a country in the Middle East that would serve as a model for the Israel Mk2 that you seem so keen on.
It is not relevant. What purpose does that question serve, other than to illuminate your point about musing whether it might be a good idea for Israel to colonise more peoples?
In any case, post-apartheid South Africa was not modelled on any of the regional states nearby. Why would that ever have been necessary? Why would Israel need to be modelled on a nearby country? It wouldn't!
Your answers purport to be sensible and reasonable but applied to pre-renewal South Africa in the early 1990s - another state which was completely unpicked and rebuilt into a Mk2 version with the colonisers properly removed from power - they amount to:
"the white colonisers and ethnic cleansers have built this political system, and despite its flaws, such as being built on ethnically-based violence and colonialism, the country is probably the most stable and still certainly the most prosperous on the continent - what if they had the right to extend their prosperous ways to other peoples in the region?" and
"the surrounding nations do not have any history of democracy or proper governance, so it is important that apartheid South Africa serves as a beacon of democracy for the region - we should ignore the fact it is a racist ethnostate". (Note the surrounding nations in this case are all run by black Africans of course, and it is an explicitly racist trope in South Africa to suggests blacks do not have political consciousness or the ability to peacefully organise and build a state - so racist that even most whites do not suggest this now, as it was one of the cornerstone arguments of paternalistic apartheid. Yet here I am listening to someone suggest the same, just for Muslims in the Middle East, as part of their rhetoric justifying Israel's continued violent existence)
Sorry I really don't get this question, and I have seen it asked plenty - are people really saying "well, if you say committing a genocide isn't the answer to a terror attack, tell me how you'd respond? Have you got a better idea?"
Why should anyone have to posit a better idea than what Israel is doing now? It is so bad that condemning it is enough.
Sorry I really don't get this question, and I have seen it asked plenty - are people really saying "well, if you say committing a genocide isn't the answer to a terror attack, tell me how you'd respond? Have you got a better idea?"
Why should anyone have to posit a better idea than what Israel is doing now? It is so bad that condemning it is enough.
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