2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[nw1]

Lots of talk about immediate ceasefire. But I really wouldn't be surprised if a lot of governments are giving a lot of support behind the scenes to the Israelis at present.

If they are, they are supporting a government who is threatening to invade someone else's sovereign territory. As I said, the West need to robustly and unambiguously condemn any ground invasion. Tolerance of Netanyahu and his actions, and tolerance of the scourge of militarism which just makes life worse for all of us, needs to stop, to be quite honest.

I fail to understand the positive prejudice towards Netanyahu and his government which so many appear to display. Their killings are OK, apparently. Netanyahu and his government have murdered huge numbers of Palestinians.

 

[Bluejays]

If they are, they are supporting a government who is threatening to invade someone else's sovereign territory. As I said, the West need to robustly and unambiguously condemn any ground invasion. Tolerance of Netanyahu and his actions, and tolerance of the scourge of militarism which just makes life worse for all of us, needs to stop, to be quite honest.

I fail to understand the positive prejudice towards Netanyahu and his government which so many appear to display. Their killings are OK, apparently. Netanyahu and his government have murdered huge numbers of Palestinians.

People don't need to like or agree with Netanyahu to think that striking Hezbollah is a good thing. Hezbollah corruption and militarism has driven Lebanon to the brink.

 

[AlterEgo]

People don't need to like or agree with Netanyahu to think that striking Hezbollah is a good thing. Hezbollah corruption and militarism has driven Lebanon to the brink.

So regime change then, traditional 2000s neoconservatism and advocating a land invasion of another sovereign country which they are not at war with. Can only go well.

 

[nw1]

People don't need to like or agree with Netanyahu to think that striking Hezbollah is a good thing. Hezbollah corruption and militarism has driven Lebanon to the brink.

Is a foreign country attacking Lebanon a good thing?

It's funny how the right often support sovereignty when it comes to their own country, yet support a blatant military invasion of a sovereign country by a foreign army.

 

[Bluejays]

So regime change then, traditional 2000s neoconservatism and advocating a land invasion of another sovereign country which they are not at war with. Can only go well.

Not at all. I don't think attacking Hezbollah is an attempt at regime change. Hezbollah of course is not the whole regime, Hezbollah affiliated parties make up a relatively small percentage of the Lebanese parliament. (If anyone is interested in politics I'd always recommend reading about the factionalism of Lebanese politics and it's political system).

The increasing military dominance of the foreign backed Hezbollah is in fact probably the biggest obstacle to the government of Lebanon exercising it's power.

 

[oldman]

It's complicated when you are being attacked by a well-funded, well-armed force located in a sovereign state which can't control them. Traditional ideas of sovereignty don't work so well in that situation.

 

[Bluejays]

Is a foreign country attacking Lebanon a good thing?

It's funny how the right often support sovereignty when it comes to their own country, yet support a blatant military invasion of a sovereign country by a foreign army.

I don't think war is ever a 'good thing'. Interested about the comment about 'the right', not quite sure what relevance it has. I'd also point out that I am an individual person, not a representative of 'the right' or 'the left ' or even the little bit in the middle of the 2. Just to clear that up.


This concept of sovereignty that you kept mentioning is of course quite interesting in this context. There are 2 armed groups that are meant to be in south Lebanon, those being the UN peacekeepers of Unifil and the lebanese army. Yet both are extremely limit d in action by the presence of the largest non state military force in the world in Hezbollah. In terms of an attack on the sovereignty of the Lebanese state I'd say Hezbollah are the major attack on that sovereignty. Israel attacking the rocket launchers (that have been launching rockets at Israel) and Hezbollah operatives is arguably less of an attack on sovereignty.

It also raises the question. Do you consider the rockets fired at Israel as an attack on the sovereignty of the state of Israel?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

It's complicated when you are being attacked by a well-funded, well-armed force located in a sovereign state which can't control them. Traditional ideas of sovereignty don't work so well in that situation.

You've explained it a lot more clearly and succinctly than I managed to. Now don your hard hat and expect incoming

 

[nw1]

It also raises the question. Do you consider the rockets fired at Israel as an attack on the sovereignty of the state of Israel?

That's a terrorist attack by a terrorist group rather than one state attacking another. The response to terrorism should not be invasion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

I don't think war is ever a 'good thing'. Interested about the comment about 'the right', not quite sure what relevance it has. I'd also point out that I am an individual person, not a representative of 'the right' or 'the left ' or even the little bit in the middle of the 2. Just to clear that up.

I say that as there seems to be a strong correlation between tolerating this kind of militarism and right-wing politics.

 

[Bluejays]

That's a terrorist attack by a terrorist group rather than one state attacking another. The response to terrorism should not be invasion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

A terrorist group that has strong levels of civic and military control over many of the areas concerned. To say that the state of Lebanon is able to effectively exercise it's sovereignty over large areas of the south would be a stretch. The sovereignty aspect is very complicated which is something you don't seem to want to accept.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2024 ==

I say that as there seems to be a strong correlation between tolerating this kind of militarism and right-wing politics.

Right ok. That to me seems to be about attacking the man rather than the ball.

 

[nw1]

A terrorist group that has strong levels of civic and military control over many of the areas concerned. To say that the state of Lebanon is able to effectively exercise it's sovereignty over large areas of the south would be a stretch. The sovereignty aspect is very complicated which is something you don't seem to want to accept.

I just know that invading another country like that isn't right. I felt exactly the same in 1991 and 2003 when we did the same thing. And, though it was before my time, I would say the same about Vietnam.

How would a Lebanese civilian feel if their friends or family end up dead thanks to an invading foreign force? It's just going to incite radicalisation. That is what militarists fail to understand.

 

[Bluejays]

I just know that invading another country like that isn't right. I felt exactly the same in 1991 and 2003 when we did the same thing. And, though it was before my time, I would say the same about Vietnam.

How would a Lebanese civilian feel if their friends or family end up dead thanks to an invading foreign force? It's just going to incite radicalisation. That is what militarists fail to understand.

I'd imagine they'd feel angry and devastated. I also unfortunately don't have huge confidence that the IDF will conduct the war in a way designed to reduce and minimise the civilian casualties.

I do however feel it's important to at least acknowledge what's happening. 40,000 plus Israelis are homeless because Hezbollah are launching rockets at their homes. States have a duty to defend their civillians. Hezbollah decided on October 8th that they'd join the fight and attack Israel on its northern front, they've continued attacking for nearly a year. Wars have and will continue to start over much lesser provocations.


* Not 40,000 . According to the BBC 70,000

Israel fighting Hezbollah with ‘full force’ despite ceasefire calls

More than 600 people have been killed by Israeli airstrikes in Lebanon since Monday, health officials say.

www.bbc.co.uk

Around 70,000 Israelis have been displaced from the north of the country since hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah, sparked by the war in Gaza, began nearly a year ago.

In Lebanon, around 90,000 people have been displaced since Monday, adding to the 110,000 who had fled their homes already, according to the UN.

 

[yorkie]

* Not 40,000 . According to the BBC 70,000

Israel fighting Hezbollah with ‘full force’ despite ceasefire calls

More than 600 people have been killed by Israeli airstrikes in Lebanon since Monday, health officials say.

www.bbc.co.uk

You talk of acknowledging what is happening; while on the subject of people being displaced in the area, how many Gazans and Lebanese do you think have been displaced due to the actions of the far-right Israeli regime?

 

[Bluejays]

You talk of acknowledging what is happening; while on the subject of people being displaced in the area, how many Gazans and Lebanese do you think have been displaced due to the actions of the far-right Israeli regime?

Lots. And there are plenty of messages in this thread condemning that.

 

[yorkie]

Lots. And there are plenty of messages in this thread condemning that.

Do you accept there is a huge power imbalance, with the far-right Israeli regime causing many times more devastation to civilians than the paramiltary groups / resistance movements they are fighting against?

And if you do accept that, why are you highlighting the far smaller losses on the Israeli side, compared to the huge losses inflicted by the far-right Israeli regime?

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what point you are making, as it makes no sense to me?

 

[Bluejays]

Do you accept there is a huge power imbalance, with the far-right Israeli regime causing many times more devastation to civilians than the paramiltary groups / resistance movements they are fighting against?

And if you do accept that, why are you highlighting the far smaller losses on the Israeli side, compared to the huge losses inflicted by the far-right Israeli regime?

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what point you are making, as it makes no sense to me?

The conversation of course was about why Israel are attacking Hezbollah. The damage in Gaza is a separate conversation and one in which the Israeli actions have quite rightly been condemned by many on here.

I was having a discussion with a poster about why Israel was attacking Lebanon, and pointed out that the rocket attacks from Lebanon over the last year mean Israel has a compelling reason to strike Hezbollah. It's pretty self explanatory, the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel is not all down to Israel. It takes 2 to tango and Hezbollah have most certainly played their part. The part that Hezbollah have played in opening up a second front has not been sufficiently acknowledged in my opinion.
Do you disagree with my statement that ' Wars have and will continue to start over much lesser provocations' ?

 

[GusB]

The conversation of course was about why Israel are attacking Hezbollah. The damage in Gaza is a separate conversation and one in which the Israeli actions have quite rightly been condemned by many on here.

I was having a discussion with a poster about why Israel was attacking Lebanon, and pointed out that the rocket attacks from Lebanon over the last year mean Israel has a compelling reason to strike Hezbollah. It's pretty self explanatory, the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel is not all down to Israel. It takes 2 to tango and Hezbollah have most certainly played their part. The part that Hezbollah have played in opening up a second front has not been sufficiently acknowledged in my opinion.
Do you disagree with my statement that ' Wars have and will continue to start over much lesser provocations' ?

You say that the damage in Gaza is a separate conversation - I don't believe that it is. Israel is using the same tactics - destroy an entire building because there might be one enemy fighter there and sod everyone else. Promises that the "normal" Lebanese population will be able to return to their homes once Hezbollah has been eliminated aren't exactly reassuring - it's quite difficult to return to a home that no longer exists!

I have little sympathy for a regime that cries about 70,000 citizens being displaced from their homes when it continues to displace many more through its actions in Gaza and the West Bank; let's not forget that more than half of that number of Gazans are dead - they certainly won't be returning to their homes any time soon. Having said that, I do have sympathy for the individuals from all sides who have to flee their homes because of this conflict; their fate is in the hands of a moron who simply doesn't want to lose face.

Finally, why does Hezbollah exist? I would suggest that it only exists because of Israel and its efforts to expel the Palestinian population over many years.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Finally, why does Hezbollah exist? I would suggest that it only exists because of Israel and its efforts to expel the Palestinian population over many years.

(Quote taken from BBC News, 21-Aug-2008):
"Hezbollah was established by Lebanese clerics primarily to fight the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon."

 

[Bluejays]

You say that the damage in Gaza is a separate conversation - I don't believe that it is. Israel is using the same tactics - destroy an entire building because there might be one enemy fighter there and sod everyone else. Promises that the "normal" Lebanese population will be able to return to their homes once Hezbollah has been eliminated aren't exactly reassuring - it's quite difficult to return to a home that no longer exists!

I have little sympathy for a regime that cries about 70,000 citizens being displaced from their homes when it continues to displace many more through its actions in Gaza and the West Bank; let's not forget that more than half of that number of Gazans are dead - they certainly won't be returning to their homes any time soon. Having said that, I do have sympathy for the individuals from all sides who have to flee their homes because of this conflict; their fate is in the hands of a moron who simply doesn't want to lose face.

Finally, why does Hezbollah exist? I would suggest that it only exists because of Israel and its efforts to expel the Palestinian population over many years.

It's separate to the point I was making when I mentioned the one short line about the numbers of displaced being the reason for Israel moving against Hezbollah. I share a lot of your concern about the way in which the IDF are likely to go about the war, as I mentioned in my post.


The moron you refer to? Netanyahu I assume? The decisions he has made now and over the years are being quite rightly condemned by many people. The man is a warmonger. I do however find the idea that he is the sole person responsible (as you appear to be suggesting) to be rather fanciful.

 

[nw1]

(Quote taken from BBC News, 21-Aug-2008):
"Hezbollah was established by Lebanese clerics primarily to fight the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon."

I was vaguely aware of trouble in Lebanon at that time but was very young so didn't understand what was going on.

Another example of militaristic, warmongering Likud action it seems. Begin sounds very like Netanyahu: another violent warmonger. To me, it seems that Likud are nothing but trouble and have, over many years, just made the situation worse. All the decent Israeli leaders - all the ones who have actively worked for peace - have been from the other parties. Likud's central belief seems to be that the correct way to respond to terrorism is retaliatory violence.

 

[yorkie]

I was vaguely aware of trouble in Lebanon at that time but was very young so didn't understand what was going on.

Another example of militaristic, warmongering Likud action it seems. Begin sounds very like Netanyahu, another violent warmonger. To me, it seems that Likud are nothing but trouble. All the decent Israeli leaders have been from the other parties: Likud just strike me as militant, hard-right aggressors who consider that retaliatory violence is the only way to deal with terrorism.

Yes, they are a dangerous far right party, whose mantra is among the lines of de-escalation by escalation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

The moron you refer to? Netanyahu I assume? The decisions he has made now and over the years are being quite rightly condemned by many people. The man is a warmonger. I do however find the idea that he is the sole person responsible (as you appear to be suggesting) to be rather fanciful.

No one is claiming that the actions of a far-right regime is the sole responsibility of one person. This is something you appear to have made up.

 

[Bluejays]

No one is claiming that the actions of a far-right regime is the sole responsibility of one person. This is something you appear to have made up.

their fate is in the hands of a moron who simply doesn't want to lose face.

That was the quote I was responding to. A quote that appears to be reducing the whole conflict down to one man. I'm struggling to understand your replies here. 'This is something you appear to have made up' is a ridiculous assertion.




== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2024 ==

I was vaguely aware of trouble in Lebanon at that time but was very young so didn't understand what was going on.

Another example of militaristic, warmongering Likud action it seems. Begin sounds very like Netanyahu: another violent warmonger. To me, it seems that Likud are nothing but trouble and have, over many years, just made the situation worse. All the decent Israeli leaders - all the ones who have actively worked for peace - have been from the other parties. Likud's central belief seems to be that the correct way to respond to terrorism is retaliatory violence.

Begin was a quite awful bloke. Best way to describe quite how nasty he was in his younger days would be to say that he had mellowed quite considerably by the time he established the Likud.

The Irgun that he was a member of, along with the lehi were extremely nasty organisations that commited some awful crimes before and during partition

 

[yorkie]

That was the quote I was responding to. A quote that appears to be reducing the whole conflict down to one man.

I really don't understand what point you are making, other than apparent nitpicking of @nw1 and @GusB's posts for no clear reason.

The leader of a far-right regime can expect strong criticsim, but I don't think the quote you seem to be worked up over could be reasonably inteprreted as saying that the sole person responsible is the leader Benjamin Netanyahu, and no-one else has any responsibility.

I'm struggling to understand your replies here. 'This is something you appear to have made up' is a ridiculous assertion.

I'm struggling to understand what problem you actually have with nw1 and gusb's points; their posts made reasonable points and you appear to be nitpicking over things that aren't there.

It comes across to me that you are looking for an argument over semantics and your unusual interpretation of what appear to be reasonable posts to me.

 

[brad465]

I was vaguely aware of trouble in Lebanon at that time but was very young so didn't understand what was going on.

Another example of militaristic, warmongering Likud action it seems. Begin sounds very like Netanyahu: another violent warmonger. To me, it seems that Likud are nothing but trouble and have, over many years, just made the situation worse. All the decent Israeli leaders - all the ones who have actively worked for peace - have been from the other parties. Likud's central belief seems to be that the correct way to respond to terrorism is retaliatory violence.

Furthermore, one of the more ambitious leaders pursuing peace, Yitzak Rabin, was assassinated by someone who opposed his peace actions, including signing the Oslo accords. Netanyahu was Likud's leader at the time and a vocal critic of Rabin's positions.

 

[Bluejays]

I really don't understand what point you are making, other than apparent nitpicking of @nw1 and @GusB's posts for no clear reason.

The leader of a far-right regime can expect strong criticsim, but I don't think the quote you seem to be worked up over could be reasonably inteprreted as saying that the sole person responsible is the leader Benjamin Netanyahu, and no-one else has any responsibility.


I'm struggling to understand what problem you actually have with nw1 and gusb's points; their posts made reasonable points and you appear to be nitpicking over things that aren't there.

It comes across to me that you are looking for an argument over semantics and your unusual interpretation of what appear to be reasonable posts to me.

I don't think I'm the one getting worked up and nitpicking over semantics. Myself and nw1 actually had a good debate yesterday.


Gusb posted to directly disagree with my post, the whole of their post was in response to my post, which of course is absolutely fine. But I was then exercising what is also a perfectly reasonable right to reply to that.



* Edited. To keep a personal rant out of the thread.

 

[kristiang85]

There's just been a huge Israeli airstrike on Beirut, apparently targeting Hezbollah's headquarters and Nasrallah himself.

 

[brad465]

So now the Hezbollah leader has reportedly been killed in strike on Beirut:

Joe Biden repeats call for ceasefire in Lebanon as strikes continue

Israel tells the US it plans to launch a limited ground incursion into Lebanon as soon as Monday, a US official says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Nasrallah and other Hezbollah commanders killed in 'targeted strike', Israeli military say​

Some more now on the IDF's statement that the leader of Hezbollah has been killed.

In the statement, it says that other senior members of the Iran-backed group were killed in addition to Hassan Nasrallah - including the commander of Hezbollah's southern front.

The IDF says that fighter jets conducted a "targeted strike" on the central headquarters of Hezbollah, which it says were located "underground embedded under a residential building in the area of Dahieh in Beirut".

It adds that the strike was conducted while the group's "senior chain of command" was operating from the suburb of Dahieh in southern Beirut - a stronghold of the armed group.

As a reminder, we've not yet had a comment through from Hezbollah.

I imagine there will be no love lost for his death, but the risk of escalation goes up even further (something Netanyahu probably wants). The question is how they do escalate, especially given Hezbollah have no leader and presumably are still reeling from the comms breakdown after the pager explosions.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have little sympathy for a regime that cries about 70,000 citizens being displaced from their homes when it continues to displace many more through its actions in Gaza and the West Bank; let's not forget that more than half of that number of Gazans are dead - they certainly won't be returning to their homes any time soon.

Quite. It’s like colonial Britain expelling hundreds of thousands of natives, committing a genocide, and then when a regional neighbour fights back, expecting us to care that Brits living in that colony got displaced or made homeless. Nobody would feel sorry or expect that story to carry any weight today. Same goes for Israel.

 

[DustyBin]

So now the Hezbollah leader has reportedly been killed in strike on Beirut:

Joe Biden repeats call for ceasefire in Lebanon as strikes continue

Israel tells the US it plans to launch a limited ground incursion into Lebanon as soon as Monday, a US official says.

www.bbc.co.uk

I imagine there will be no love lost for his death, but the risk of escalation goes up even further (something Netanyahu probably wants). The question is how they do escalate, especially given Hezbollah have no leader and presumably are still reeling from the comms breakdown after the pager explosions.

The best (albeit unlikely) scenario at this point would be for Hezbollah to be removed by the Lebanese themselves.

 

[brad465]

The best (albeit unlikely) scenario at this point would be for Hezbollah to be removed by the Lebanese themselves.

If this significantly weakens Hezbollah then the ability for the Lebanese to remove them is much easier, however Israel launching strikes and device explosion attacks with collateral damage is more likely to create a "common enemy" narrative, which could easily stop the rest of Lebanon wanting to overthrow Hezbollah. If anything it might increase Hezbollah's support in areas. So as you allude to, I don't see the Lebanese removing Hezbollah anytime soon and if they are militarily defeated, then it's possible a new organisation will come forward and continue hostilities (like how Hamas are not the first military/terror organisation from Palestinian territories).

 

[yorkie]

If this significantly weakens Hezbollah then the ability for the Lebanese to remove them is much easier, however Israel launching strikes and device explosion attacks with collateral damage is more likely to create a "common enemy" narrative, which could easily stop the rest of Lebanon wanting to overthrow Hezbollah. If anything it might increase Hezbollah's support in areas. So as you allude to, I don't see the Lebanese removing Hezbollah anytime soon and if they are militarily defeated, then it's possible a new organisation will come forward and continue hostilities (like how Hamas are not the first military/terror organisation from Palestinian territories).

Exactly; far-right Israeli doesn't seem to be capable of learning that de-escalation through escalation is an utterly absurd policy.

Their destructive actions, including genocide, and other war crimes, are only going to strengthen the feelings against Israel.

The far-right is never a solution to any problems, however unfortunately the sort of people who vote for far-right parties lack the intelligence to learn from history.