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2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

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Falcon1200

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A democratic and multi-racial state. That isn't a hard answer

I agree, such a 'New Israel/Palestine' would indeed be the ideal to which all should aspire. However; Would the establishment of this new state put an end to the ages-old enmities in the area? And is there another similar state in the region which the new one should seek to emulate?
 
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DustyBin

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What a splendid equivocation. "Well, we could have murdered more people - thankfully it was just some random bystanders and a couple of children. We are the good guys".

There are no “good guys” here. Israel did however inflict a huge number of casualties against a legitimate military target (and terrorist group) with seemingly limited collateral damage. They’re capable of being far more reckless as you’re well aware.

You say that like it wasn't possible for the packages to be sent internationally with the explosives in them in the first place. Hezbollah have had them for months. But sure, let's for arguments sake say it couldn't have happened in London. What difference does it make?

They weren’t carried through airport security by individuals though, and I very much doubt they could be.

The difference is that London is in the UK, and as far as I’m aware we’re not at war with Israel. That’s fairly fundamental wouldn’t you agree?

Highly targeted by blowing them up in public places, yes, very targeted. I mean, what is it you're trying to say here? Would that attack be acceptable if it happened to a few Hezbollah terrorists in Britain? If they exploded in the Tesco Express down the road from you? I think you'd be outraged, especially if an innocent child who was standing next to them got maimed or died. I don't think you'd be saying what a targeted attack it was then. It is reckless terrorism no better than a car or letter bomb, because they have no concern about who else gets killed.

I’ll refer you back to the first part of my reply. By the standards of this war it wasn’t particularly reckless, and I’m extremely doubtful it would pass the terrorism test. Unpleasant and rather scary? Yes of course, but so is dropping bombs and firing rockets indiscriminately, which is the usual modus operandi of both sides in this conflict.

What does it matter if the feeling is reciprocal? It makes no difference to the moral weight of Israel's crimes of genocide, mass murder, infanticide, apartheid and so on - many of which are being perpetrated against children.

It’s a matter of context; both sides have the same intent, however one is proving rather more capable of executing that intent than the other.

Some (many) of Israel’s actions are indefensible, but let’s not pretend it’s a one way street…

They managed to ship 3,000 booby-trapped pagers from Hungary to Lebanon without anyone noticing.

As above, they presumably didn’t pass through normal security. I strongly suspect they were shipped on an Israeli military (or contracted) flight.

I suppose in some respects. The fact that is unlikely to have been a cyber based attack does at least mean that we don't necessarily need to worry about our mobile phones suddenly being turned into bombs by the simple expedient of some malicious code.

But, it probably does raise quite serious questions about the security of supply chains and just how certain we can be that buying things that are made in one country, containing components from a different country, using a design based on work done in yet another country that are then being shipped around the world is a practice which does not allow for the sort of attack where an aggressor tampers with the product. Either, as in this case, to turn it into an explosive device or for some other nefarious purpose.

It really is probably time that a lot of countries began to think about this sort of thing rather than just allowing their companies to just go for the cheapest bidder all the time to ensure maximum amounts of "line must go up!" (not that I'm suggesting we go for full autarky either!).

So I'm not sure that the fact that Mossad had to do it the old fashioned way and actually get explosives into these devices is in reality all that comforting!

Some good points.

I should have emphasised the word relatively!
 

AlterEgo

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I agree, such a 'New Israel/Palestine' would indeed be the ideal to which all should aspire. However; Would the establishment of this new state put an end to the ages-old enmities in the area?
No, it would not stop people disliking or distrusting each other, but it would be fairer and more just. South Africa.

And is there another similar state in the region which the new one should seek to emulate?
No, not that it is relevant. See South Africa in 1994 yet again. No comparable country in the region.

Almost every objection people have to reimagining Israel can be shown to be unreasonable by showing how, using the same logic, that person would have also objected to the end of apartheid in South Africa.

There are no “good guys” here. Israel did however inflict a huge number of casualties against a legitimate military target (and terrorist group) with seemingly limited collateral damage. They’re capable of being far more reckless as you’re well aware.
Right so, because this was just appalling and resulted in the deaths of innocent children, and not in fact much worse, like an act of genocide, we are supposed to think this is okay?

They weren’t carried through airport security by individuals though, and I very much doubt they could be.
I rather suspect anyone using a pager to receive updates from militants might check it in, but if it makes you feel better that it couldn't happen in Britain and it only killed innocent Lebanese people alongside some militants that's up to you.

The difference is that London is in the UK, and as far as I’m aware we’re not at war with Israel. That’s fairly fundamental wouldn’t you agree?
No, you are dodging the fact you're excusing the act in Lebanon - and in fact justifying it and providing moral relevance to it - when you would not if it happened here. Were you outraged by the Russian radiation incident in Salisbury? If not, you should have been, for its reckless nature in that civilians got harmed and could have been killed. Britain is conducting conflicts against multiple actors and states, and if any of them were to try to retaliate by blowing up key individuals in public spaces in Britain, ending up killing British children as collateral, you'd be outraged. You probably feel sickened at things like the Warrington bomb, where the IRA waged its war on Britain with little regard for the people it would kill, regardless of how "clean" their aims might have been. You know you would be disgusted by it, and you want to avoid feeling unclean about your comfort that it was just Lebanese children killed by hoping to avoid the comparison.

It’s a matter of context; both sides have the same intent, however one is proving rather more capable of executing that intent than the other.
That's because that side is being aided and abetted in its genocide by our government and you are expected by our media and the state to think it's okay for Israel to do that, and in fact will go so far as to provide moral equivocation for their war aims. A more principled stand is to call out both aggressors but concentrate on maintaining pressure on our own responsibilities in bringing the genocide to an end.
 

AndrewE

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No, you are dodging the fact you're excusing the act in Lebanon - and in fact justifying it and providing moral relevance to it - when you would not if it happened here. Were you outraged by the Russian radiation incident in Salisbury? If not, you should have been, for its reckless nature in that civilians got harmed and could have been killed.
Somebody was...
A public inquiry into the death of Novichok victim Dawn Sturgess will start in October.

A hearing held earlier at the Royal Courts of Justice was told there will be "astonishing observations", but that not everything can be heard in public.

Ms Sturgess, 44, died in July 2018 in Wiltshire after coming into contact with the nerve agent in what she thought was a bottle of perfume.

I can't understand how Israel get away with inflicting such terrible "collateral damage" on civilians anywhere and everywhere, apparently justified by the claimed assassination of a Hamas person.
 

Tetchytyke

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As above, they presumably didn’t pass through normal security. I strongly suspect they were shipped on an Israeli military (or contracted) flight.
Hezbollah are not amateurs, I’m sure they scanned the equipment before they used it.

I bet dollars to donuts that if you carried one of these booby-trapped pagers through commercial airport security it wouldn’t get detected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You probably feel sickened at things like the Warrington bomb, where the IRA waged its war on Britain with little regard for the people it would kill
The same people cheering this atrocity are the same people who were outraged when the IRA bombed the Conservative Party conference.
 

Ediswan

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Hezbollah are not amateurs, I’m sure they scanned the equipment before they used it.

I bet dollars to donuts that if you carried one of these booby-trapped pagers through commercial airport security it wouldn’t get detected.
I rather suspect that, with sufficient rescources, it is possible to encapsulate and then decontaminate small amounts of explosives so that there is no detectable residue. Can't comment on modern CT scanners.
 

yorkie

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It’s preferable to blowing up the whole supermarket.



Wouldn’t terrorists carrying (unbeknown to them) explosive devices find international travel somewhat difficult?



Possibly not (note the feeling is reciprocal), but this was a highly targeted attack against actual terrorists.
I find this post rather disturbing; do you really want to (be seen to) condone this terrorist attack, by an aggressive occupying state? If so, I find it disappointing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I can't understand how Israel get away with inflicting such terrible "collateral damage" on civilians anywhere and everywhere, apparently justified by the claimed assassination of a Hamas person.
Indeed; it's very much a case of double standards. However, some people who support the far-right Israeli government claim it is "racism" to call out Israel's illegal occupation, terrorist actions and oppression towards civilians, which I think scares politicians and the media. It's utterly absurd.
 
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GRALISTAIR

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Confirmed. Israel informed the USA beforehand of an operation but gave no details.


Israeli officials notified the US that the country was going to carry out an operation in Lebanon on Tuesday but did not give any details about what they were planning, according to three sources familiar with the matter, including in a call between Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant early Tuesday morning.
The fact no details about the operation were given meant US officials were in the dark until reports of hundreds of exploding pagers emerged a short time later, the sources said.

CNN has learned that Israel was behind the audacious attack, which has heightened tensions in a region already on edge even further, and it was a joint operation between Israel’s intelligence service, the Mossad and the Israeli military. The Lebanese government condemned the attack as “criminal Israeli aggression.”

On Wednesday, walkie-talkies detonated in a fresh wave of explosions in Lebanon, a security source told CNN. It’s not clear who was responsible or if the US was notified.

Tuesday’s explosions came as Secretary of State Antony Blinken was traveling from Washington to Cairo on Tuesday, stunning US diplomats who watched the breaking news in real time on their airplane TVs.
 

yorkie

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Just as crowds had gathered to mourn some of those killed in Tuesday’s wave of pager-bomb attacks, an explosion sparked chaos in Dahiya, Hezbollah’s stronghold in southern Beirut.

A video captured the blast, showing a man lying on the ground and panicked people, some screaming, running away.

All this, moments before funerals were due to start for an 11-year-old boy and three Hezbollah members killed the previous day.

In the surrounding area there was bedlam as the sound of the explosion echoed through the streets...
These really are despicable terrorist acts; this is the sort of disgraceful act you might expect from a lowlife terrorist organisation, not an actual state (albeit one run by a far-right regime).

The state of Israel clearly has no intention of ever complying with international law, and has every intention of carrying out multiple terrorist acts.

The international community must act much more decisively and stop this blatant and ludicrous bias towards this far-right terrorist state.
 

brad465

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Israel now moving some forces from Gaza to the north, with Defence Minister Gallant saying the country was opening a "new phase of the war". Once again it's clear Netanyahu will do anything to stay out of jail:


The 98th division of the Israeli military has today relocated from Gaza to the north of Israel, a source has confirmed to the BBC. It had been fighting until recently in the Gaza Strip.

Until now, there was one division in the north - the 36th division - meaning this move will significantly increase the forces there. Two divisions remain focused on Gaza.

Israel’s northern border with Lebanon is where conflict has been taking place with Hezbollah since October last year.

As we've been reporting, around 60,000 Israelis have been displaced in the region due to exchanges of fire with Hezbollah - this week Israel’s government made their return a core war goal.

Earlier, Israeli defence minister Yoav Gallant also said the country was "opening a new phase in the war" - and that the "centre of gravity is shifting to the north through the diversion of resources and forces".
 

Ediswan

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Israel now moving some forces from Gaza to the north, with Defence Minister Gallant saying the country was opening a "new phase of the war". Once again it's clear Netanyahu will do anything to stay out of jail:
It also serves to divert attention from settlement activity in the West Bank.
 

GRALISTAIR

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These really are despicable terrorist acts;
I have been trying to find a definition of terrorism. I got this one from Wikipedia.
Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants.

Since most countries define Hezbollah as terrorists and not non-combatants, I am not sure you are correct on this one.
 

peteb

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Looks like Phase 2 deployed now.

After the exploding pagers, handheld radios have now ignited.

I'm expecting the carrier pigeons tomorrow.

ACME brand, no doubt.
I think we'll find that the lithium ion batteries used to power most mobile devices from pagers, walkie-talkies, phones through laptops to cars, are the main source of the explosion. Once ignited these batteries are difficult to extinguish until all the stored energy is used up. If provided with the right "trigger" something can cause these batteries to dangerously overheat quickly and thus "explode".

It's nothing new as this YouTube video from a few years ago shows:

 

brad465

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Now lo and behold, Israel is directly striking southern Lebanon:


Israel strikes Hezbollah during Nasrallah's speech​


Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is speaking now - and we've just heard the Israel Defense Forces is carrying out fresh air strikes on the group's targets in Lebanon.

Air raid sirens have also been heard in northern Israel. Israel's military says it is bringing “security to northern Israel in order to enable the return of residents to their homes”.

Stay with us for more.
 
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yorkie

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Surely that was the whole point of using exploding pagers issued to Hezbollah to avoid/minimize civilian casualties?
Are you trying to be disingenuous?

Even if you genuinely believe this was the regime's intention - which would be a departure from their usual acts which so inflict civilian casualties - do you really think it was successful?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have been trying to find a definition of terrorism. I got this one from Wikipedia.

Since most countries define Hezbollah as terrorists and not non-combatants, I am not sure you are correct on this one.
Devices exploding in supermarkets, and at funerals counts as going for combatants, does it?

Are you serious?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Are you trying to be disingenuous?
Even if you genuinely believe this was the regime's intention - which would be a departure from their usual acts which so inflict civilian casualties - do you really think it was successful?
Most news outlets here in the USA and commentators have made the point that it was a good attempt at minimizing civilian casualties. It will almost certainly have the effect of severely disrupting communications between the terrorists. From that point of view and since it is a war, I suggest it was very successful indeed.
Devices exploding in supermarkets, and at funerals counts as going for combatants, does it? Are you serious?
If civilian casualties are kept to a minimum, the location does not matter too much.
 

yorkie

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Most news outlets here in the USA and commentators have made the point that it was a good attempt at minimizing civilian casualties
I wouldn't trust the USA media outlets to be totally unbiased in their reporting of matters pertaining to Israel. It is well recognised internationally that the level of US support for Israel is dubious at best.
. It will almost certainly have the effect of severely disrupting communications between the terrorists. From that point of view and since it is a war, I suggest it was very successful indeed.

If civilian casualties are kept to a minimum, the location does not matter too much.
So your argument is that it's okay to have explosive devices detonating at supermarkets, funerals etc?

Would you take the same view if you, or your family members, were attending a funeral or shopping at a supermarket where such a detonation occurred?
 

jon0844

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Most news outlets here in the USA and commentators have made the point that it was a good attempt at minimizing civilian casualties. It will almost certainly have the effect of severely disrupting communications between the terrorists. From that point of view and since it is a war, I suggest it was very successful indeed.

Sounds like it was mostly luck. Reminds me of when the IRA would plant bombs in public places, but phone in a coded bomb warning so they could state they weren't attempting to kill any civilians. Unfortunately that didn't always turn out well.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I wouldn't trust the USA media outlets to be totally unbiased in their reporting of matters pertaining to Israel. It is well recognised internationally that the level of US support for Israel is dubious at best.

So your argument is that it's okay to have explosive devices detonating at supermarkets, funerals etc?

Would you take the same view if you, or your family members, were attending a funeral or shopping at a supermarket where such a detonation occurred?
I have skin in the game.

My wife’s brother married an Israeli in 1977 and he lived with her for 2 years prior and brought her back to Preston to get married. They have 4 children (+grand kids) -my nephews and nieces by marriage who are half Prestonian and half Israeli. She of course has family in Israel who have all (including her) served in the Israeli military. Now my brother-in-law is a builder so once, on holiday in Israel visiting the family he had married into, built an extension on the house for the Israeli family on the Kibbutz- Kibbutz Sa’ar 22805 District North Western Galilee. A few weeks later it made the national news in Israel because Hezbollah fired a Katusha rocket and it hit the house. Eventually the Preston family flew out to Israel and rebuilt the house. One of my wife’s sister-in-laws brother died.

Now in the early 1980s my own sister decides to go and live in Israel. She meets an Arab Israeli and marries him (again in Preston after living in Tiberias for 3 years). His family were from Iraq but all his brothers and sisters were born in Iraq but they moved to Israel to escape Arab persecution of Jews. However, he is the only member of the family born in Israel. His mother tongue is Arabic. He was taught in Hebrew at school in Israel and of course has lived in Preston for 38 years so is fluent in English too. My nephews and nieces by blood are thus half Prestonian and half Arab-Israeli. All the rest of his family live in Israel.

From what I gather, because of course they are all worried sick, most now own guns, have trained to use them and keep them in their homes and Kibbutz .

All they all want to do is live in peace. The stated aim of the terrorists is “From the river to the sea”

I am sorry, I am worried sick and can’t take the side of the terrorist – I have skin in the game. I would be abandoning my family which really would make me scum of the earth. I hope and pray you understand (although I dont believe in god)
 

yorkie

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I have skin in the game.

My wife’s brother married an Israeli in 1977 and he lived with her for 2 years prior and brought her back to Preston to get married. They have 4 children (+grand kids) -my nephews and nieces by marriage who are half Prestonian and half Israeli. She of course has family in Israel who have all (including her) served in the Israeli military. Now my brother-in-law is a builder so once, on holiday in Israel visiting the family he had married into, built an extension on the house for the Israeli family on the Kibbutz- Kibbutz Sa’ar 22805 District North Western Galilee. A few weeks later it made the national news in Israel because Hezbollah fired a Katusha rocket and it hit the house. Eventually the Preston family flew out to Israel and rebuilt the house. One of my wife’s sister-in-laws brother died.

Now in the early 1980s my own sister decides to go and live in Israel. She meets an Arab Israeli and marries him (again in Preston after living in Tiberias for 3 years). His family were from Iraq but all his brothers and sisters were born in Iraq but they moved to Israel to escape Arab persecution of Jews. However, he is the only member of the family born in Israel. His mother tongue is Arabic. He was taught in Hebrew at school in Israel and of course has lived in Preston for 38 years so is fluent in English too. My nephews and nieces by blood are thus half Prestonian and half Arab-Israeli. All the rest of his family live in Israel.

From what I gather, because of course they are all worried sick, most now own guns, have trained to use them and keep them in their homes and Kibbutz .

All they all want to do is live in peace. The stated aim of the terrorists is “From the river to the sea”
Indeed; the far-right Israeli terrorist regime do indeed have a slogan along the lines that 'between the river and the sea, there will only be Israeli sovereignty'

In fact, the "from the river to the sea" is absolutely meaningless by itself; I know you are attempting to misrepresent the saying and I am not going to fall for your tricks!

By coming out with this claptrap, you demonstrate your absolute bias in this area. You are being extremely selective and disingenous in your arguments.
I am sorry, I am worried sick and can’t take the side of the terrorist – I have skin in the game. I would be abandoning my family which really would make me scum of the earth. I hope and pray you understand (although I dont believe in god)
I can understand why you are biased, because of family, but that in no way makes you right. Indeed someone who is biased should, ideally, be stepping back from the arguments, in recognition of their lack of ability to detatch their own emotions from the reality of the situation.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I wouldn't trust the USA media outlets to be totally unbiased in their reporting of matters pertaining to Israel. It is well recognised internationally that the level of US support for Israel is dubious at best.
It may seem crazy, but it seems that the left/liberal outlets in the USA are more supportive of the Israel side than the conservative outlet.
 

yorkie

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It may seem crazy, but it seems that the left/liberal outlets in the USA are more supportive of the Israel side than the conservative outlet.
Well, if you believe what you are posting, there is clearly an issue with the reporting in the USA. But it doesn't take much research to realise that what you posted was, at the very least, overly simplistic and incomplete.

Indeed, there is an entire Wikipedia article on "from the river to the sea"; which is merely the start of a wider range of phrases, uses by numerous sides, with varying disagreements on what some of those phrases actually mean.

Does the US media report on stories of this nature?

The surgeon said a large proportion were “severely injured” and many had lost the sight in both eyes...
.... Elias Jaradeh described the wounded he treated as looking "mostly civilian".
You talk about your family, and appear to admit to taking a pro-Israeli regime view on that basis, but if you had relatives in Lebanon who were victims of these terrorist acts by the Israeli regime, would you then take a different view?

It's a shame, as it makes me question your posts about other matters, such as electrification, which is particularly concerning for me as I want to believe what you say about that topic, but this is making me have doubts which I don't want to have.
 
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Trackman

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Being a licensed Ham radio operator, I was interested in how the walkie-talkies exploded.
The model was an Icom VC82 (discontinued), Icom is a very well respected brand in the amateur world.
In the UK it's used for 2m ham band on FM (around 145 MHz) , however it can be expanded to 136-174 MHz worldwide.
What I have found out, the original battery case (which slots on) can be easily manipulated to put what you want in it without anyone knowing it has been tampered with. Secondly, the radio itself is not setting off the detonation - It cant be done software wise AFAIK, it's something inside the battery case, and it is feasible via RF.
To pull this off though, you would need to buy these radios in bulk and fit iffy batteries and then send them out.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Well, if you believe what you are posting, there is clearly an issue with the reporting in the USA.

Absolutely no doubt about that at all! See, we can agree on things.

But it doesn't take much research to realise that what you posted was, at the very least, overly simplistic and incomplete.

Oh I agree again. To be complete and non-simplistic would take a PhD thesis I believe, and take way too long and outside the scope of this forum.

You talk about your family but if you had relatives in Lebanon who were victims of these terrorist acts by the Israeli regime, would you then take a different view?
Quite possibly - probably even. That is why there needs to be a lasting peace settlement. I hate war. There are no winners really - or if you "win" it comes at a horrendous price.
 

AlterEgo

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Surely that was the whole point of using exploding pagers issued to Hezbollah to avoid/minimize civilian casualties?
Again, this is an argument that simply wouldn’t fly if it was some British children and British innocents that got caught up and killed in an attack like this. If the IRA had bombed a soldier while he was standing in the supermarket and killed a child too in the process it would have been rightly regarded as repellent, as well as uninterested in civilian carnage. It would also have been rightly regarded as terrorism.
 
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