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2020 US Presidential Election

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najaB

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It has been noted in this thread, there were some issues, miscounting of votes...
There wasn't any more or less miscounting than in any other election anywhere else in the world. Recounts pretty much always result in slightly different totals but, as in this case, a couple hundred out of hundreds of thousands.
vote switching
There have been claims of votes switching, but nobody has yet provided any proof.
Why did they stop counting at 10pm send people away and then restart counting?
Because that's how the state/county chooses to conduct the count. Some count all through the night, some don't. And it's always been that way.
Why didn't they allow people to watch?
They did. There were both Republican and Democrat poll observers in every count.
 
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dosxuk

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I get it, Trump a bad man etc etc look from neutral point. This election is not like Daz and isn't whiter than white. Does that mean it was rigged? no does that mean there wasn't some sort of fraud? No. Could it change the election No etc etc Here is the problem the way the officials are going about and acting is helping to fan the flames of this fire. If you want to heal, you need to get everything out in the open let the proper legal process go ahead, not play a game of political ping pong in the courts, because they don't want to touch it. Remember brexit.. swept it away and it will come back harder to bite you.
All of this will be done in time. At the moment the states are on a strict timetable to confirm and validate their vote totals and declare a winner. There is fraud all the time in elections, many of it accidental (like people voting twice because they did a postal vote but then decide to vote on the day instead), however what the authorities need to know for now is whether the scale of those errors/mistakes/deliberate fraud could over turn the result? If you're looking at reports of 30 odd fraudulent votes, there's no point worrying about them now if the winner won by 10,000 votes. Even if all those votes were wrongly included in the initial totals they can't change the result.

It has been noted in this thread, there were some issues, miscounting of votes, vote switching, those machines, for the most part there were sorted yet how on earth did that happen in the first place. Why did they stop counting at 10pm send people away and then restart counting? Why didn't they allow people to watch? In Taiwan its different story, anyone can watch and can count along.
Many of these issues have been brought up by the republicans where they were losing, and not in a "this is fraudulent, it's wrong" manner, in a "this looks weird, just sayin'" manner. It's sole intended audience is people who need a reason to believe they have been cheated in the election. On the immediate days following the election this was clear as day, with different arms of the republican party demanding that it was both unfair and absolutely necessary that votes were continued to be counted, always depending on whether Trump was winning or losing at that point.

Lets just take some of your claims:
- miscounting of votes / vote switching - nothing verified. Lots of complaints from people watching over the internet that they saw votes being altered, but every case that's been looked into has been proven to a) be clarifying a vote that was misread and b) being marked properly in front of both dem and rep monitors.
- how on earth did that happen in the first place - because humans and machines are falliable. There are checks and balances designed into the rules to ensure that those mistakes are detected and corrected. That mistakes show up isn't a problem, it's evidence that the system is working
- Why did they stop counting at 10pm - why should they count through the night if they don't have to? They don't need to confirm their result until much later. Besides, the places where this became a problem were counting like this because the republican controlled authorities had refused permission to change the rules to allow counting of postal votes before the election date.
- Why didn't they allow people to watch? - they did. Many states also streamed their counts online allowing anyone to watch from the comfort of their own home. Covid meant many states restricted numbers or to registered persons, and there were a few cases of people not being allowed in when they should have been, that was often swiftly rectified, but I'm not aware of any counts that were held without any observers.

When people start acting a bit funny, It will always raise an eye brown. Like I said either something fishy is going on or alot of people are heading to jail for lying, This is why this keeps on going around and around.
No, it keeps going around because people want it to keep going around and not following the rules and regulations that were in place at the time of the election. They don't like the result so they are looking for reasons as to why it can be discounted or changed (there are parallels here with the fraud allegations raised by the remain leaning groups after the EU referendum, however none of them attempted to get the results of areas they lost changed to wins because of "reasons").

Which most of which was never kicked out, on they merits but for procedural matter's, which again does not look good.
It only looks bad if you want them to change the result and don't understand the rules. Take the Texas wanting to change the results of four states because Texas doesn't agree with those states' election rules. The courts just said they weren't looking at it because Texas has no rights to challenge those other states' rules. Should California be allowed to overturn Texas' result because it doesn't agree with their election rules? No, it's a nonsense. As long as the rules were put in place fairly and properly, and the rules were followed then there is no case to answer.

TLDR; at the moment the only issues with fraud is if it could change the result of a state election. Nobody has any evidence that suggests this is the case. The small amount of fraud that has happened can be investigated at leisure.
 

21C101

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I suspect if there is a successful challenge to the election it will be that postal voting was expanded in several states through the (Democrat) Governor taking the matter to state courts and winning rather than the (Republican) state legislatures doing it through a bill. The constitution is quite specific that it is for the leglislatures to take that decision and if and when the courts hear it there will be lots of arguments about the need for emergency measures due to coronavirus etc.

What is interesting is that a lot of the hatred towards Trump is because he is uncouth and vulgar, rather than his policies.

Had he been silver tongued and charismatic he would have got away with murder. I suspect the next Trump will be such a charismatic figure and far more right wing (trump isn't even particularly right wing in historical terms). The Democrats show no sign of understanding the issues that made it possible for Trump to win in the first place in the same way that the hardline remainers are similarly mulish here (Mandelson apart perhaps).
 

edwin_m

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I get it, Trump a bad man etc etc look from neutral point. This election is not like Daz and isn't whiter than white. Does that mean it was rigged? no does that mean there wasn't some sort of fraud? No. Could it change the election No etc etc Here is the problem the way the officials are going about and acting is helping to fan the flames of this fire. If you want to heal, you need to get everything out in the open let the proper legal process go ahead, not play a game of political ping pong in the courts, because they don't want to touch it. Remember brexit.. swept it away and it will come back harder to bite you.

It has been noted in this thread, there were some issues, miscounting of votes, vote switching, those machines, for the most part there were sorted yet how on earth did that happen in the first place. Why did they stop counting at 10pm send people away and then restart counting? Why didn't they allow people to watch? In Taiwan its different story, anyone can watch and can count along.

When people start acting a bit funny, It will always raise an eye brown. Like I said either something fishy is going on or alot of people are heading to jail for lying, This is why this keeps on going around and around.




Which most of which was never kicked out, on they merits but for procedural matter's, which again does not look good.
A few genuine frauds and errors have been found, but don't affect more than a handful of votes, and some were in favour of Trump. No recount has ever changed a result by more than a tiny percentage.

What the Trump side is mostly alleging is that the procedures adopted by various States for mail-in ballots were unconstitutional or fraudulent in various ways. So it's actually a question of law not of the facts about what took place on the ground, and a legal judgement is an appropriate route to resolving the matter. A full examination of these via the courts would require the election to be stayed for however many months (or more likely years) the legal process would take, with Trump remaining in power in the meantime. The other option would be to re-run the election with more restriction on absentee ballots, but that would skew the result towards Trump given his encouragement of Republicans to vote in person and the measures introduced in some states that seem to be aimed at suppressing the ballot in Democrat-leaning areas. Either way Trump would gain disproportionately from an intervention, where the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that he lost by a convincing margin.
 

najaB

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A full examination of these via the courts would require the election to be stayed for however many months (or more likely years) the legal process would take, with Trump remaining in power in the meantime
He would not. His term expires at 11:59:59 on the 20th of January regardless of any legal challenge.
 

21C101

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The most interesting scenario is if legislators in several states decide not to send any electors.

Then neither candidate gets 270 votes (a majority) in the electoral college.

That means a vote in the house of representatives decides it.

The catch being that each states representatives get one vote between them, ie one state one vote.

So although the Dems have a majority of MPs, the republicans have the a majority in a majority of states, so Trump would win in such a scenario.

I think there is a slim chance of this happening though

I think it rather more likely the federation will fracture in time
 

nlogax

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What is interesting is that a lot of the hatred towards Trump is because he is uncouth and vulgar, rather than his policies.

I don't believe it's that simple. Both Trump's leadership style and his policies (well, more executive orders rather than anything else) have been equally abhorrent, but in Trump's case the presentation is is his starter for ten and that's what drives the support for his policies. He IS charismatic - in the eyes of just enough people - and he has gotten away with murder. At the turn of the century Trump was very much more aligned to liberal values and for the best part of a decade donated to the Democrats. I know people change, but in Trump's case I struggle to understand what turned the tide for him and turned him into the person he is now. Could it really be as simple as the pursuit of power?
 

overthewater

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The most interesting scenario is if legislators in several states decide not to send any electors.

Then neither candidate gets 270 votes (a majority) in the electoral college.

That means a vote in the house of representatives decides it.

The catch being that each states representatives get one vote between them, ie one state one vote.

So although the Dems have a majority of MPs, the republicans have the a majority in a majority of states, so Trump would win in such a scenario.

I think there is a slim chance of this happening though

I think it rather more likely the federation will fracture in time

House members might vote by who won the state however.... it would be a tie. 25 each since DC goes not get a vote in the house.

Nancy Pelosi it is then, for President. :D


I don't believe it's that simple. Both Trump's leadership style and his policies (well, more executive orders rather than anything else) have been equally abhorrent, but in Trump's case the presentation is is his starter for ten and that's what drives the support for his policies. He IS charismatic - in the eyes of just enough people - and he has gotten away with murder. At the turn of the century Trump was very much more aligned to liberal values and for the best part of a decade donated to the Democrats. I know people change, but in Trump's case I struggle to understand what turned the tide for him and turned him into the person he is now. Could it really be as simple as the pursuit of power?

The White House Correspondents Dinner. in 2011..
 

21C101

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States may not seceed from the Union unilaterally. That has been decided in the supreme court and on the battlefield.
Texas have the constititional right to Texit (or break the state up into four states) should they wish to.

If fact if you look up #texit on Twitter it can be seen that this hashtag has gone rather viral in the last 24 hours as serious campaigning for a Texit Referendum has begun.
 
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Andrew*Debbie

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Texas have the constititional right to Texit (or break the state up into four states) should they wish to.

The quotes and tweets I've seen speak of secession from the Union, not breaking Texas into four states. Do you have a reference?

There is no clause or amendment in the US Constitutition allowing secession of a state. No Federal law permits secession. If you are aware of Federal law or a Federal court precedent that supports secession, please post a link.

Former conservative Supreme Court Justice Scalia on Secession:

"To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede."

Source --> https://www.businessinsider.com/justice-scalias-views-on-secession-2012-11?r=US&IR=T
 

21C101

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The quotes and tweets I've seen speak of secession from the Union, not breaking Texas into four states. Do you have a reference?

There is no clause or amendment in the US Constitutition allowing secession of a state. No Federal law permits secession. If you are aware of Federal law or a Federal court precedent that supports secession, please post a link.

Former conservative Supreme Court Justice Scalia on Secession:

"To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede."

Source --> https://www.businessinsider.com/justice-scalias-views-on-secession-2012-11?r=US&IR=T
Here you go.

"For More Than 150 Years, Texas Has Had the Power to Secede…From Itself​

A quirk of a 19th-century Congressional resolution could allow Texas to split up into five states"​



 
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HSTEd

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The quotes and tweets I've seen speak of secession from the Union, not breaking Texas into four states. Do you have a reference?

There is no clause or amendment in the US Constitutition allowing secession of a state. No Federal law permits secession. If you are aware of Federal law or a Federal court precedent that supports secession, please post a link.

Former conservative Supreme Court Justice Scalia on Secession:

"To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede."

Source --> https://www.businessinsider.com/justice-scalias-views-on-secession-2012-11?r=US&IR=T

Texas' situation is somewhat unusual, given the quirks of the agreement that saw it enter the Union in the first place.
 

overthewater

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It has been game over for a while: it’s just that he doesn’t accept the rules.

What rules has be broke? He has ever legal right to challenge the election, if he didn't all this carry on wouldn't have happened. As much as everyone say, there is no rules to state he must concede.
 

najaB

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What rules has be broke? He has ever legal right to challenge the election, if he didn't all this carry on wouldn't have happened. As much as everyone say, there is no rules to state he must concede.
Nobody said he's broken any laws, what he's broken are the rules and conventions which say that, absent actual evidence, one doesn't question the legitimacy of the electoral process.
 

Andrew*Debbie

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Game over today for Trump? with the electoral college vote happening today.
No. He is going to keep on claiming fraud and holding rallies.

He is dragging most of the Republican party along on this ride to crazy town.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Oh and it isn't over.

Vice President Pence will annouce the results of the vote during a joint session of congress on January 6th. Trump may pressure him to not recognize Biden as the winnter.
 

37424

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According to the BBC Biden has now got over the 270 line in the Electoral College, Trump now needs to give it up and get lost.
 

Gloster

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According to the BBC Biden has now got over the 270 line in the Electoral College, Trump now needs to give it up and get lost.
But will he? Accepting that he lost does not seem to be in his nature, so will he keep on pushing ever more flimsy court cases. Whether he thinks that he can still win or just believes that he can always portray himself as a hard done by victim of cheating, is difficult to tell. With Trump it is very difficult to tell where rational thinking, for want of better words, ends and knee-jerk reaction starts.
 

hst43102

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According to the BBC Biden has now got over the 270 line in the Electoral College, Trump now needs to give it up and get lost.
Finally some good news. Hopefully Trump does the right thing, accepts it and everyone can move on from a very unpleasant few months.
 

najaB

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But will he? Accepting that he lost does not seem to be in his nature, so will he keep on pushing ever more flimsy court cases.
No, he won't accept it. The GOP plan to send an alternative set of electoral college votes for Congress to ratify on Jan 6th.
 

bspahh

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But will he? Accepting that he lost does not seem to be in his nature, so will he keep on pushing ever more flimsy court cases. Whether he thinks that he can still win or just believes that he can always portray himself as a hard done by victim of cheating, is difficult to tell. With Trump it is very difficult to tell where rational thinking, for want of better words, ends and knee-jerk reaction starts.
A benefit for him to carry on with the legal cases, is that he can get donations from his supporters, to "fund the legal bills". This money has a lot less strings attached to it than normal campaigning funds.
 

birchesgreen

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No, he won't accept it. The GOP plan to send an alternative set of electoral college votes for Congress to ratify on Jan 6th.
To combat their claims of "electoral fraud" they are going to commit electoral fraud. Whoever said Americans don't do irony?
 

dgl

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William Barr, Trumps Attorney General, will now go before Christmas "to spend more time with his family", sounds like the stuation when a football manager resigns "we both came to the agreement that I should go".


US Attorney General William Barr, one of Donald Trump's staunchest allies, is stepping down before Christmas, the president has announced.
Mr Barr's term was due to end on 20 January, when Mr Trump leaves office.
Tensions between the two erupted after Mr Barr said there was no evidence of widespread fraud in November's vote.
He was criticised by Mr Trump for not publicly disclosing that the justice department was investigating Joe Biden's son during the campaign.
Mr Trump tweeted Mr Barr's resignation letter saying: "Our relationship has been a very good one, he has done an outstanding job!"
Mr Barr's letter to the president began by saying he "appreciated the opportunity to update" the president on the Department of Justice's (DOJ) review of voter fraud allegations in the recent election and "how these allegations will continue to be pursued".
He did not give more details about the review, and praised Mr Trump's achievements in office before ending the letter by saying he will depart from his position on 23 December.
 
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