2017 fares

[Merseysider]

I thought this would happen. My local fare was £2 in 2015. In 2017 it's £3.10! That's more than a 50% increase with no consultation and not so much as a poster at a station to tell people there would be significant changes to fares. The service of 2tph has not improved and we don't have a single extra train at peak times to improve frequency (even the tiny Derbyshire village of Chinley has 3 trains at peak time in a hour but Mauldeth Road doesn't). Madness.

The single is £3 so they're charging £1 a mile, more than that at peak times.

What's hilarious is that it's now cheaper for me over the whole week to commute to Manchester on Advances from Liverpool than stay in my suburban Manchester house and travel in each day on a mixture of CDRs and SDRs, so that's what I'm doing come January. Madness

And the one reason why anyone would choose the train over the bus, price, is now disappearing. I don't often slag off the railway but these relentless increases are BS. Imagine if Oyster fares went up by the same amount.

 

[Starmill]

It's crazy. TfL controlled fares are frozen for 4 years while similar fares in Greater Manchester increase by as much as 58%, despite having much, much worse service and an evening peak that no longer applies to Oyster caps (but here we have no caps, and have to buy SDS tickets at huge cost if we choose a GM Travelcard as no peak version is even available). We also have no all-modes season like London does. Manchester is basically giving up making public transport better for everyone.

 

[northwichcat]

What's hilarious is that it's now cheaper for me over the whole week to commute to Manchester on Advances from Liverpool than stay in my suburban Manchester house and travel in each day on a mixture of CDRs and SDRs, so that's what I'm doing come January. Madness

The cheapest Chester to London Advances are only 10p more than an Anytime Single Route: Altrincham between Chester and Stockport.

 

[FenMan]

No matter what day/time combination is entered into NRE, I see no sign of any Super Off Peak Day Return fares on SWT priced journeys (yet).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The service of 2tph has not improved and we don't have a single extra train at peak times to improve frequency (even the tiny Derbyshire village of Chinley has 3 trains at peak time in a hour but Mauldeth Road doesn't). Madness.

The single is £3 so they're charging £1 a mile, more than that at peak times.

Northern's 'Central Area Comms' team has produced a "helpful" guide to help staff explain to passengers why the Manchester fares are still good value. Part of, well, okay, all of this is showing fares for bus, tram, and another comparable journey somewhere on the Northern network. Highlights include....

Journey in TfGM area (CDR fare)............. Comparable Journey (fare)

Ashton-under-Lyne - Manchester (£4.50)... Thirsk - York (£11)
Burnage - Manchester (£3.60)................. Carlisle - Penrith (£7.60)
Clifton - Manchester (£4.50)................... Stoke - Macclesfield (£8.90)
Glossop - Manchester (£5.40).................. York - Scarborough (18.10)
Godley - Manchester (£5.20)................... Leeds - York (£13.10)
Humphrey Park - Manchester (£3.60)....... Newcastle - Durham (£7.30)
Hyde Central - Manchester (£5.10)........... Nottingham - Derby (£6.90)
Ince (Manc) - Manchester (£5.40)............ Sheffield - Stockport (£17.70)
Irlam - Manchester (£5.10)..................... Lancaster - Preston (£7.50)
Littleborough - Manchester (£5.40)........... Crewe - Stockport (£11.30)
Mauldeth Road - Manchester (£3.10)......... Wigan - Preston (£6.50)
Orrell - Manchester (£5.40)..................... Leeds - Manchester (£19.50)

 

[Starmill]

That's absolutely hilarious. York to Thirsk is 23 miles, Ashton-under-Lyne to Manchester is 6! My favourite is York to Scarborough at a shade over 42 miles, which they think is comparable to the 13 miles from Glossop to Manchester.

 

[Merseysider]

Thanks hairyhandedfool.

One has to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that the GM fares here...

Ashton - Manc 6 miles £4.50 0.75ppm
Bus £3.20 ..........................0.53ppm
Thirsk - York 24 miles £11.20 0.47ppm

Hyde - Manc 6.5 miles £5.10 0.78ppm
Bus £3.20............................0.49ppm
Notts - Derby 15 miles £6.90 0.46ppm

Irlam - Manc 9 miles £5.10 0.57ppm
Bus £3.20.........................0.36ppm
Lanc - Preston 22 miles £7.50 0.34ppm

Mau - Manc 3.5 miles £3.10 0.89ppm
Bus £1.00..........................0.29ppm
Wigan - Preston 17 miles £6.50 0.38ppm

Burnage - Manc 4.5 miles £3.60 0.8ppm
Bus £1.00................................0.22ppm
Carlisle - Penrith 18 miles £7.60 0.42ppm

...are good value for money compared to the bus and the 'comparable' Intercity journey.

What else have they got?

 

[bb21]

Are the "Central Area Comms" team trying to get their fellow frontline staff assaulted?

 

[Starmill]

Off-Peak train fares used to be cheaper than bus fares for almost all journeys in Greater Manchester. I'm pretty shocked that that has been allowed to end in just 2 years with so little publicity. And almost no extra trains too.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thanks hairyhandedfool.

One has to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that the GM fares here...

Ashton - Manc 6 miles £4.50 0.75ppm
Bus £3.20 ..........................0.53ppm
Thirsk - York 24 miles £11.20 0.47ppm

Hyde - Manc 6.5 miles £5.10 0.78ppm
Bus £3.20............................0.49ppm
Notts - Derby 15 miles £6.90 0.46ppm

Irlam - Manc 9 miles £5.10 0.57ppm
Bus £3.20.........................0.36ppm
Lanc - Preston 22 miles £7.50 0.34ppm

Mau - Manc 3.5 miles £3.10 0.89ppm
Bus £1.00..........................0.29ppm
Wigan - Preston 17 miles £6.50 0.38ppm

Burnage - Manc 4.5 miles £3.60 0.8ppm
Bus £1.00................................0.22ppm
Carlisle - Penrith 18 miles £7.60 0.42ppm

...are good value for money compared to the bus and the 'comparable' Intercity journey.

What else have they got?

To be fair, they are return fares, so Ashton-Manchester would be £0.375pm on the train. Also, it's interesting that you say the bus fare for Mauldeth Road and Burnage is £1, as the brief has the return fare down at £4.00 (day ranger?). I think Swinton (Manc) is the same with a £1 bus single fare, but the briefing also lists that at £4.

Gathurst-Manchester (£5.40) is listed as comparable to Blackburn-Lancaster (£12.60)

Are the "Central Area Comms" team trying to get their fellow frontline staff assaulted?

Oh I wouldn't call them 'fellow', I doubt they've ever seen the frontline, nevermind been part of it.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Also, it's interesting that you say the bus fare for Mauldeth Road and Burnage is £1, as the brief has the return fare down at £4.00 (day ranger?). I think Swinton (Manc) is the same with a £1 bus single fare, but the briefing also lists that at £4.

There's a £1 flat fare for journeys between Didsbury and Manchester (or a £7.50/week season). There certainly also used to be one from Swinton, I think that's still the case too

 

[northwichcat]

I agree those TfGM comparisons are stupid. I've come up with some roughly comparable distance journeys (within a few chains) using the Mid-Cheshire line between TfGM set fares and non-PTE fares

Stockport to Manchester CDR £4.00
Northwich to Knutsford CDR £5.50 (37.5% more)

Hale to Manchester CDR £4.60
Delamere to Mobberley CDR £9.90 (115% more)

Navigation Road to Heaton Chapel CDR £4.00
Chester to Delamere CDR £6.20 (55% more)

Altrincham to Levenshulme CDR £4.60
Mouldsworth to Lostock Gralam CDR £7.00 (52% more)

So on average the non-PTE fares are almost 65% higher than the PTE fares.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Meanwhile, in London, the 15 mile round trip between New Southgate and Moorgate is currently £8.70 All Day (58p a mile) and will be going up to £8.80 (58.7p a mile)...with no Off-Peak option.

 

[anme]

From what I've read everythings talks about 2.3% increase. It seems only here do people mention 1.9%. I guess 1.9% doesn't seem as bad, which is why people talk of 2.3%.

People moan about fares increases but National Rail Enquiries say this:


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/83871.aspx

So the average has fallen in real terms. So yes people pay more but in real terms they are not doing so. Surely that's a good thing.

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You're missing an important point. It might be that the average distance of a rail journey has fallen, which all else being equal would result in a fall in the average price. In fact, I think this has happened. The price per mile is what is important. As it's not quoted it might week have gone up.

Think very carefully before falling for political spin.

 

[northwichcat]

Meanwhile, in London, the 15 mile round trip between New Southgate and Moorgate is currently £8.70 All Day (58p a mile) and will be going up to £8.80 (58.7p a mile)...with no Off-Peak option.

Or it's £2.80 off-peak single if you register a contactless bank card with TfL and aren't TfL freezing those fares?

In Cheshire it's 15 miles from Chester to Greenbank. An off-peak return will currently cost you £8.90 but if you want to travel in the morning peak you need to pay £10.50, with a high risk of getting a Pacer in at least one direction. I thought fares in London were supposed to be expensive, yet for New Southgate to Moorgate you get an off-peak price at peak times.

 

[MikeWh]

Or it's £2.80 off-peak single if you register a contactless bank card with TfL and aren't TfL freezing those fares?

No. TfL are only allowed to freeze fares that they set in their entirity. New Southgate is late-adopter NR so will be increased by RDG/ATOC. Travelcards are also going up because they are jointly priced by RDG and TfL.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's been different at least this year and last year for the January change - ATOC have stipulated that the new fares are to start being sold on the Friday before the traditional date on which they would have been on sale, and they are now requiring all suppliers of ticket issuing systems to implement support for a variable on-sale date. I'm not sure why the Friday - maybe they think that is a good day to bury bad news and it will be forgotten about come Monday?

Did RDG actually tell anyone about this


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[hairyhandedfool]

Did RDG actually tell anyone about this

Why would they do that?

There is/was a list, of when new fares should be sold, in iKB, but as no-one ever tells anyone when this gets updated anymore (at least, no-one at Northern does), things like this can be easily missed.

They probably altered the date because people had gotten used to it changing on the Sunday.

 

[infobleep]

You're missing an important point. It might be that the average distance of a rail journey has fallen, which all else being equal would result in a fall in the average price. In fact, I think this has happened. The price per mile is what is important. As it's not quoted it might week have gone up.

Think very carefully before falling for political spin.

Perhaps you'd care to ask National Rail Enquiries to rewrite the page. No chance of them doing that though. Large organisations seem to like spin. Are there any that don't?

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[janb]

Why would they do that?

There is/was a list, of when new fares should be sold, in iKB, but as no-one ever tells anyone when this gets updated anymore (at least, no-one at Northern does), things like this can be easily missed.

That page is still there and hasn't been updated, still says that new fares should be sold "4 weeks or less" before the fares change date. Need to revise it to "whenever RDG feel like it, say the Friday before 4 weeks".

 

[northwichcat]

It might be that the average distance of a rail journey has fallen, which all else being equal would result in a fall in the average price.

We don't know what the average distance of a journey is simply because so many people use combinations of tickets. Old Northern Rail tried to claim the average fare people paid to travel on their services was very low but in that calculation they presumably included a lot of people who buy a ticket from a station just outside a PTE area to the PTE border alongside a PTE product, as two separate journeys.