20 years on from British Rail - Privatisation

[och aye]

I just happened to be looking for photos of the last British Rail passenger service and came across this link with a few photos:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-th...arrives-at-euston-station-london-4107693.html

I remember the BBC showed a clip of the train leaving Waverley, but can't find it on the website or YouTube.

By chance while reading the description of the photo, its been just over 20 years on from 1 April 1997 when the final British Rail service pulled into its final stop.

It got me thinking what everyone's thoughts are on the railways in Britain after

I know we've had the endless topics about Nationalisation V Privatisation debates on the forum, but it would be interesting the read the thoughts on what peoples views are on the positives and negatives over the last 2 decades and where we are today with Britain's railway since that watershed moment.

 

[goatie]

for me the worst parts of privatisation was the breakup of group friendship between all the departments, yes we had a go at each other but we all worked for that common goal.
also the way the pecking order within the railway has gone, once private companies took over parts/departments wages for some shot up, which has left the tax payer paying in more
Train driver were in demand and so the different companies had to pay more & more to get drivers
the OHL guys were in demand with contractors paying good money so much so the maintenance companies put up ohl linemans wage from 12K to 18K overnight,
managers did the same, when NR took the companies in house many lower managers (band 5) were paid 10K more than their new in house manager
the cost of paying all the staff within the rail industry now must be a lot higher than it would have been if kept as a Nationalised company

 

[Harpers Tate]

Worst thing: Fragmentation. Everybody clamouring for their own extra 25p of revenue making weird fare discrepancies, routing guide exceptions, and so on all the more frequent; ticket offices refusing to (for example) offer fare/ticlet changes because another company issued them; and so on and so on. Differences in ticketing policy because TOC1 uses a different system to everyone else - such as not offering pre-booking collection at this (staffed) station.

Best thing: Commercial activity; promotional pricing, to far greater a degree than BR ever seemed able to contemplate. Such as (early on in the life of Midland Main Line) a cooked breakfast served on a Saturday, as part of a special First Class London Day Out deal. That type of thing. Far, far more creative than BR were.

 

[DarloRich]

Worst thing: Fragmentation. Everybody clamouring for their own extra 25p of revenue making weird fare discrepancies, routing guide exceptions, and so on all the more frequent; ticket offices refusing to (for example) offer fare/ticlet changes because another company issued them; and so on and so on. Differences in ticketing policy because TOC1 uses a different system to everyone else - such as not offering pre-booking collection at this (staffed) station.

Best thing: Commercial activity; promotional pricing, to far greater a degree than BR ever seemed able to contemplate. Such as (early on in the life of Midland Main Line) a cooked breakfast served on a Saturday, as part of a special First Class London Day Out deal. That type of thing. Far, far more creative than BR were.

And yet the staid BR offered really good value deals with vouchers from Persil and Boots years before prvititisation. They offered child fares with a railcard for £1 and cooked breakfasts in buffets for many years.

 

[Butts]

And yet the staid BR offered really good value deals with vouchers from Persil and Boots years before prvititisation. They offered child fares with a railcard for £1 and cooked breakfasts in buffets for many years.

Don't forget the hallowed BR combination - a BLT, McEwans Export and 20 Bensons you could actually smoke on the Train never mind the platform.

Seriously it seems to me Staff have done very well out of the end of Nationalisation at least financially. Ironically they seem to moan about it most.

Do they want to go back to BR Wages ????

 

[AndrewE]

There are (were) a few more rewards from working for BR than just the pay you took home, which I admit wasn't a lot. When inflation was rampant we kept getting an extra day's annual leave or added to a bank holiday in lieu of a pay rise!

Cameraderie as mentioned by Goatie, national free (4 times a year when I joined) and priv travel.

p.s. a full National Vacancy List showing all the jobs on offer, sometimes in departments you never knew existed.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am too young to have properly formed memories of BR, as they ceased to exist when I was 9, but I very fondly remember the liveries of NSE and InterCity. Intercity was a very evocative concept and we only ever travelled it to go to Newcastle and see family, which was a Very Big Deal because it was Far Away.

I recall being petrified of passing trains at Harrow and Wealdstone - in those days there was a lot of MkII stock on the WCML which is very loud, owing to (I think) there being plenty of space underneath the carriage floor for air to swirl. (Compare the undersides of a MkIIF saloon with a MkIII to see what I mean)

 

[CapitalStar378]

Crazy fares are the massive downside of privatisation, we have the most expensive railway in Europe. It's also massively subsidised in many areas and some of these subsidies have doubled since 1997. ToCs taking millions out in profits. No joined up thinking across the network.

Not ideal.

 

[TimboM]

I just happened to be looking for photos of the last British Rail passenger service and came across this link with a few photos:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-th...arrives-at-euston-station-london-4107693.html

20+ years on and the same Mk3 sleeper stock can be seen at Euston with an 87 (sometimes) on the blocks! So in that respect at least, not a lot has changed...

 

[duesselmartin]

20+ years on and the same Mk3 sleeper stock can be seen at Euston with an 87 (sometimes) on the blocks! So in that respect at least, not a lot has changed...

a good serviced train should be able to last 40 years or one buys that cheap plastic bombarider/alstom rubbish (Coradia Lint ect) so many European railways use nowadays.

 

[6Z09]

Staff may have much better salary now but over the past few years conditions have gone backwards at an alarming rate!

Part time,Zero hours contracts, Rest periods cut !
The shiny new trains may fool the passenger but ask the staff at the sharp end,not such a success story!

 

[Moonshot]

20 years on....and record numbers of passengers are travelling on the UK network. Isnt that what the railway is designed for???

To what extent todays railway is privatised is a moot point.....with the taxpayer providing the lions share of capex through Network Rail, and 50% of the fare basket regulated. Todays railway is still nationalised albeit with services contracted out to the private sector, who pay the staff a lot more than would have been under British Rail.

 

[DarloRich]

Don't forget the hallowed BR combination - a BLT, McEwans Export and 20 Bensons you could actually smoke on the Train never mind the platform.

Seriously it seems to me Staff have done very well out of the end of Nationalisation at least financially. Ironically they seem to moan about it most.

Do they want to go back to BR Wages ????

Aha McEwans Best Scotch - the one you've got to come back for!

No journey was complete without a gang of jocks seeing how much export/best they could drink between London & Scotland ( WCML seemed bad for it!) . Some of the empty can piles resembled modern art!

(BTW when i was a kid i thought you only got three types of beer: McEwans/Broon/Vaux)

You don't see that these days.

EDIT: Actually 4 - Exhibition

 

[Moonshot]

Aha McEwans Best Scotch - the one you've got to come back for!

No journey was complete without a gang of jocks seeing how much export they could drink between London & Scotland ( WCML seemed bad for it!) . Some of the empty can piles resembled modern art!

You don't see that these days.

Replaced by the ale trail

 

[Clip]

Crazy fares are the massive downside of privatisation, we have the most expensive railway in Europe. It's also massively subsidised in many areas and some of these subsidies have doubled since 1997. ToCs taking millions out in profits. No joined up thinking across the network.

Not ideal.

Please quantify your statement.

I am on a train right now from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly in first class and I'm going onwards to another destination all in 1st class and its costing me £50.

That's a bargain wouldn't you say?

 

[satisnek]

Privatisation - I'll resent it for the rest of my days. So unnecessary (unlike the reorganisations after the two World Wars). Although it should be pointed out that almost everything about our rail system today - whether good or bad (and much of that depends on personal opinion!) - originated in the last 10-15 years of BR.

I am on a train right now from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly in first class and I'm going onwards to another destination all in 1st class and its costing me £50.

That's a bargain wouldn't you say?

Yes, but you didn't walk into Euston booking office ten minutes or so before departure and say, "First Class single to Manchester [or wherever], please." That's the rub.

 

[AM9]

As a passenger, the biggest negative is the myth of a joined up service. Anybody making a journey involving two or more TOC's services just hopes that connections aren't wiped out by en-route delays. In BR days, trains could be held where it was possible to make time up. Now, despite well padded timings, scheduled connecting trains can be seen pulling out from adjacent platforms as doors open for you. The 'privilege' of delay repay is a sop that the TOC's fob us off with. The system is set up so that blame can be accounted for commercially, - no consideration for the paying passenger.
Positives include a much more safety concious culture. That incldes measures addressing the needs of the less fortunate amongst us who need visual and/or physical assistance. It still has a long way to go there but the 'it's all "elf 'n safety nonsence'" dinosaurs are thankfully going the way of their namesake. The railway is for all passengers, not just the fit ones.
Despite the above issues and high prices, I am more than happy to use trains subject to availability, in preference to polluting the environment even more by driving my own tin box around on the roads, and then complaining about every other driver being in \ way. Anywhere inside the M25, rail is a no-brainer.

 

[NSEFAN]

Yes, but you didn't walk into Euston booking office ten minutes or so before departure and say, "First Class single to Manchester [or wherever], please." That's the rub.

To be fair, how many people (who were not wealthy) would have done that back on BR days?

And with the roads far busier than they were 20 years ago, it's not surprising that fares have been able to go up above inflation. It's expensive, but clearly affordable otherwise passenger numbers wouldn't keep rising steadily (to the point where we have to build new railways).

 

[StephenHunter]

For comparative purposes, a Second Class single from Euston to the then Manchester London Road in January 1958 (Source ABC Railway Guide), taking around 4 hours depending on the service, was 30/8. Adjusted for inflation, that's £33.97.

Today, the off-peak single is £82.90, but you can get advances for £38.

 

[StephenHunter]

To be fair, how many people (who were not wealthy) would have done that back on BR days?

How many people do that now?

 

[satisnek]

To be fair, how many people (who were not wealthy) would have done that back on BR days?

That's a good point - I was always under the impression that First Class was traditionally the province of the expense account holder, and it's only in recent times (going by these forums at any rate) that more people are prepared to pay the extra 'for a bit of peace and quiet'.

But the key question is, when talking about train fares then and now, do we include todays 'advance' fares (a 'bolt-on' system which has been imported from planes and coaches)? Personally I don't, and when comparing like-for-like fares then trains are indeed horrendously expensive today. Although, as I said, it all has its origins in the final years of BR.

 

[Nonsense]

As an occasional casual passenger, the first thing I noticed to come out of privatisation, aside from repainted trains and what I read in RAIL, was Manchester Piccadilly refurb. Went from the grot of greasy platforms and soot darkened canopies to immaculate marble platforms, bright light and clear glass, even had Christmas music piped through the PA system. To then board the second to last Northern Spirit 158 of the night on Xmas Eve, with its new seats and pretend first class section, it was a world away from my regular journeys about five years earlier.

 

[muddythefish]

I dislike the privatised railway intensely, and would welcome back BR in a heartbeat - as long as it were funded properly .

 

[muddythefish]

As an occasional casual passenger, the first thing I noticed to come out of privatisation, aside from repainted trains and what I read in RAIL, was Manchester Piccadilly refurb. Went from the grot of greasy platforms and soot darkened canopies to immaculate marble platforms, bright light and clear glass, even had Christmas music piped through the PA system. To then board the second to last Northern Spirit 158 of the night on Xmas Eve, with its new seats and pretend first class section, it was a world away from my regular journeys about five years earlier.

And who paid for the Piccadilly refurb ? - the private sector or the publicly owned Railtrack / Network Rail ?

 

[Nonsense]

And who paid for the Piccadilly refurb ? - the private sector or the publicly owned Railtrack / Network Rail ?

No idea. But as an occasional casual traveller, that's the first significant difference I noticed, and it was a considerable improvement on what had been there before.

 

[StephenHunter]

No idea. But as an occasional casual traveller, that's the first significant difference I noticed, and it was a considerable improvement on what had been there before.

Either way it's; us we pay for it through taxes or we pay for it through fares.

 

[Moonshot]

I dislike the privatised railway intensely, and would welcome back BR in a heartbeat - as long as it were funded properly .

As I pointed out earlier, the railway isnt privatised.

 

[jon0844]

Rather like when the NHS outsources to a private company. It isn't privatised, as a contract can be ended at any time. Many people don't get the distinction, or do but ignore it as it doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[route101]

Was it 2002 Manchester Picc was refurbished ?

 

[AY1975]

That's a good point - I was always under the impression that First Class was traditionally the province of the expense account holder, and it's only in recent times (going by these forums at any rate) that more people are prepared to pay the extra 'for a bit of peace and quiet'.

But the key question is, when talking about train fares then and now, do we include todays 'advance' fares (a 'bolt-on' system which has been imported from planes and coaches)? Personally I don't, and when comparing like-for-like fares then trains are indeed horrendously expensive today. Although, as I said, it all has its origins in the final years of BR.

Exactly, BR InterCity introduced (in order of cheapness) SuperApex, Apex and SuperAdvance fares in the late 1980s or early '90s. They were quota-controlled, just like today's Advance tickets, but they were return fares, so you could only get one if they were still available for both the outward and the return leg of the journey at the time you wanted to travel. I think the SuperAdvance fare was normally the same price as a walk-on SuperSaver (previously known as a Blue Saver, as opposed to a White Saver that was valid on Fridays), but also available on certain trains on Fridays when SuperSavers were not valid.

The same fare structure continued for the first few years of privatisation, but was soon replaced by the single-leg Advance fares that we know today.