2 x 5 car SET on ECML

[HWLad]

Hi Guys,

My question is will the Mark 3 Electrification Equipment, used on the East Coast Mainline (ECML), be able to support 2 5 car Hitachi Super Express Trains (SET) running in multiple at 125mph?

I ask this as the ECML electrification was designed to support the one pantograph of the Class 91 at 140mph. However, having been reading these forums for a while, it seems dual pantograph operation requires a speed restriction of 110mph (like when North of London Class 373 sets were used) owing to the oscillation of the wires. I'm curious as to whether these oscillations are acceptable for the SETs working in multiple at 125mph with current infrastructure or whether it would need improving as part of the InterCity Express Programme (IEP).

 

[asylumxl]

As far as I am aware, testing has been done to ensure compatibility between the two pantographs and the OHLE on the ECML. There should be no issues.

 

[D365]

As far as I remember, testing has taken place with two Class 91s coupled back-to-back between nine Mk4 coaches, i.e. one loco replacing the DVT. As with the Class 395, pantographs are fitted on both driving vehicles, which provides a feature of redundancy as well as the necessary clearance for multiple working. When two SET units are coupled the outermost pantographs are raised.

 

[jopsuk]

This is a classic of the enthusiast "I'm worried. Have they even thought about (really obvious issue)?"

So yes, as other posters say, they've carried out an extensive test program using trains with two 91s to prove that it's fine.

 

[ainsworth74]

The performance of that train must have been quite something!

 

[HWLad]

This is a classic of the enthusiast "I'm worried. Have they even thought about (really obvious issue)?"

So yes, as other posters say, they've carried out an extensive test program using trains with two 91s to prove that it's fine.

That's probably true, I apologise for being rather dense about it! I guess I should have phrased it to emphasise the methods in clearing 2 pantograph operation. I really appreciate the information!

 

[jopsuk]

I apologise for being a little curt- there's been a rash of people posting such things!

 

[BananaRepublic]

I would expect it's also included in the SET ECML test programme.

 

[BestWestern]

This is a classic of the enthusiast "I'm worried. Have they even thought about (really obvious issue)?"

So yes, as other posters say, they've carried out an extensive test program using trains with two 91s to prove that it's fine.

You'd be surprised how many 'really obvious issues' appear to be overlooked at times!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Hi Guys,

My question is will the Mark 3 Electrification Equipment, used on the East Coast Mainline (ECML), be able to support 2 5 car Hitachi Super Express Trains (SET) running in multiple at 125mph?

I ask this as the ECML electrification was designed to support the one pantograph of the Class 91 at 140mph. However, having been reading these forums for a while, it seems dual pantograph operation requires a speed restriction of 110mph (like when North of London Class 373 sets were used) owing to the oscillation of the wires. I'm curious as to whether these oscillations are acceptable for the SETs working in multiple at 125mph with current infrastructure or whether it would need improving as part of the InterCity Express Programme (IEP).

As others have said, it's all been tried and tested.

The Eurostar issue is a little more complex as the pantographs were set up differently with a higher uplift force for the higher tensioned High Speed routes. IEP/SET will have its pantographs suited to the ECML's current tensioning.

 

[Murph]

You'd be surprised how many 'really obvious issues' appear to be overlooked at times!

Indeed, here's a brilliant example of it in action, and it's not as if they can even blame imperial vs. metric or something like that:

French red faces over trains that are 'too wide'
The forum thread about it.

Will the trains fit the loading gauge is probably an even more really obvious issue than will they work in multiple due to the double pan issue.

 

[jonty14]

This is a classic of the enthusiast "I'm worried. Have they even thought about (really obvious issue)?"

So yes, as other posters say, they've carried out an extensive test program using trains with two 91s to prove that it's fine.

So what! Stop having a go at enthusiasts. It is getting really annoying on this forum! Let enthusiasts ask a question without being put down all the time. Is this a forum only for professionals? I don't think so.

 

[D365]

Just as long as you don't try suggesting that a Class 91 should be gutted and converted to a DVT...

 

[Taunton]

This is a classic of the enthusiast "I'm worried. Have they even thought about (really obvious issue)?".

Ah yes. You mean like "I'm worried. Is the budget and timescale really enough for the GW electrification which has just been approved ..."

 

[sprinterguy]

The performance of that train must have been quite something!

Given that the class 91/HST hybrids of the late eighties reportedly took off like a rocket, then performance with a pair of 91s must have been impressive indeed.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Given that the class 91/HST hybrids of the late eighties reportedly took off like a rocket, then performance with a pair of 91s must have been impressive indeed.

Were 225 sets always planned to be a class 91 at one end and a DVT or were they initially intended to have a class 91 at each end?

 

[Murph]

Were 225 sets always planned to be a class 91 at one end and a DVT or were they initially intended to have a class 91 at each end?

Their cousin, the class 370 APT-P, had 2x 4000hp Bo-Bo, but that was for 2+12. Everything I've ever read about IC225 was that it was always to be a single class 91 & DVT, at least after it had been renamed from APT-U to IC225. I can't remember what the original proposed formation was for APT-U, and can't find the site which had the info right now.

 

[LexyBoy]

So yes, as other posters say, they've carried out an extensive test program using trains with two 91s to prove that it's fine.

Did they just model it in the test program, or was there a programme of real-world testing too?

 

[sprinterguy]

Their cousin, the class 370 APT-P, had 2x 4000hp Bo-Bo, but that was for 2+12. Everything I've ever read about IC225 was that it was always to be a single class 91 & DVT, at least after it had been renamed from APT-U to IC225. I can't remember what the original proposed formation was for APT-U, and can't find the site which had the info right now.

APT-U would have had a power car at each end, sandwiching ten non-articulated trailers (There may also have been a stretched 2+12 version). A smaller APT-S was also proposed, with a 125mph maximum speed, which would mimic the eventual formation of the 225s in having a power car at one end, nine passenger carriages and a DVT, although the carriages would have been articulated.

As you say, the Intercity 225 project always intended to operate with a single power car at one end, and a DVT at the other (though they were initially (1986) proposed to include up to eleven carriages).

This page has some handy graphics of the possible APT train lengths:
http://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm

And the following image has been posted on the forum before, and seems to show some sort of interim, semi-articulated proposal for the APT-S formation:
http://www.traintesting.com/images/formations.JPG
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did they just model it in the test program, or was there a programme of real-world testing too?

It was reported at the time that this actually happened in a series of overnight (I think) tests on the ECML, though the activities seem to have been pretty clandestine in terms of information reaching the public.

It wasn't just a case of sticking a 00 gauge class 91 on each end of someone's Hornby train set and saying "yep, that seems fine", wait, sorry, I think that's not the right sort of "modelling".

 

[theageofthetra]

Out of interest was this test train the most powerful to operate on the ECML or does that accolade belong to those rented in Eurostar units?

 

[sprinterguy]

Out of interest was this test train the most powerful to operate on the ECML or does that accolade belong to those rented in Eurostar units?

That accolade still rests with the GNER Eurostars - Their two power cars generated a combined output of 16,400hp.

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as I remember, testing has taken place with two Class 91s coupled back-to-back between nine Mk4 coaches, i.e. one loco replacing the DVT.

Surely you must have meant to write two Class 91s with nine Mark4s between them?

 

[D365]

Surely you must have meant to write two Class 91s with nine Mark4s between them?

*checks time of posting* Not nearly late enough for me to blame it on sleep