2 Questions.

[Dai.]

I notice that the carriages have classes like trains, "MK2" "MK3" and that, but how do you tell the difference between them?

Also I was watching a programme on sky called off the rails (Discovery Real time extra) and it said on there in specs. for some rail vehicles. "Wheel formation" or something along those lines and it had beside it a set of numbers like, 0-2-0 and that. What does that mean?

Cheers!

Matt.

 

[laseandre]

Mk1s, Mk2s, Mk3s and Mk4s have different designs and were made at different times. Mk1s the earliest (50s), Mk4s the latest (late 80s).

 

[Dai.]

Mk1s, Mk2s, Mk3s and Mk4s have different designs and were made at different times. Mk1s the earliest (50s), Mk4s the latest (late 80s).

Oh
thanks!

Is there a piece of writing on the side that says when its built or is it just guess work?

 

[me123]

Mk IV carriages have electric doors (ie, the ones you'd find on the GNER/NXEC IC225s). MkIIIs are used on the HSTs. Can't help you much further I'm afraid There's no marking as such, but perhaps the carriage numbers can indicate the type.

 

[Dai.]

oh okay, and can someone answer the wheel formation query?

What does it mean?
(the 0-2-0 thing)

 

[class 313]

The general shape is a big hint too

 

[Phoenix]

oh okay, and can someone answer the wheel formation query?

What does it mean?
(the 0-2-0 thing)

Hmmm how to explain this without sounding stupid or being stupid.

well I assume were talking of old loco wheel formations well say we go for 1-2-1 it basically means if im correct that the first group of wheels (the leading wheels) there would only be one set then we move on to the two which is the middle set which usually moves the loco so if this is 2 there would be two weel sets and the final number which is the trailing set of wheels if this were one then it would be the same as the first being only one wheel set.

I could be wrong as I am not 100% if one wheel set is 1 or 2 (because in a set there are two tyres (wheels).

 

[Bastiaan]

The numbers indicate the number of wheels, wich makes a '0-2-0' arrangement impossible The first and last number indicate the non-driven wheels. Numbers in between (no matter how many) indicate the wheels that are driven.

So a 4-6-2 locomotive has two non-driven axles at the front, followed by three driving axles and finaly one non-driven axle. That type of locomotive is called a 'Pacific'.
In European notation this wheel formation is called 2' C 1'. Numbers indicate non-driven axles, letters indicate driven axles, the aphostrophe means that de wheelset is mounted independent from the locomotive (so called 'bogie').

A class 66 has the wheel arrangement 0-6-6-0. It has two sets of three driving axles and no non-driven axles. However, this notation isn't used any more for modern locomotive. We now use the European notation, where a class 66 gets the axle formation Co' Co' (the o means that each wheel has its own propulsion).

A lot of information about different notations of the wheel formation and how they work can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_arrangement

I hope I answered your question now.

 

[Gizmogle]

Mk4s are easy, cause like me123 said, they have electric doors.

I tell the difference between Mk1s and Mk2s by the windows.

Mk1

Mk2

 

[class 313]

Mk4s are easy, cause like me123 said, they have electric doors.

I tell the difference between Mk1s and Mk2s by the windows.

Mk1

Mk2

Not true, some MK2s aren't air con and have MK1 style windows...

For example, MK2 A's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:5174_NLR_260108_d.adkins.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mk_2A_TSO_5278_'Melisande'_at_Cheltenham_Spa.JPG

And MK2 B's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:British_Rail_Mk_2b,_Cheriton,_1994.jpg

 

[Gizmogle]

Ah, okay. My mistake

 

[me123]

Oh, and if the electric doors aren't obvious from a distance, there's the rather unique MkIV body shape as well.

 

[Hyperen]

An easy way to tell the difference between Mk2 and Mk3 is by looking at the underside of the coach. If you can see lots of component in a mess it's Mk2, Mk3 coaches have an aerodynamic skirting hiding all of these bits and pieces.

Mark 2

Mark 3

 

[jopsuk]

Or look at the roof- Mark 3s are ridged lengthways, Mark 2s are smooth.

You might notice most of the links given are to resources on wikipedia- for most well established, non-controversial subjects, it really is a fantastic resource. There's a HUGE amount on the British Railway system- including pages (of varying detail/quality) for every current station and class of loco, unit and passenger stock, and for a lot of the closed/defunct/retired ones as well.

 

[TheSlash]

Oh
thanks!

Is there a piece of writing on the side that says when its built or is it just guess work?

There is an information panel on the end of a coach telling you it's length, weight, gauge clearance {plus some other stuff}. I expect that probably specifies what Mk of coach the vehicle is

 

[rail-britain]

http://www.coachshots.co.uk/1280/sj037448.jpg
http://www.coachshots.co.uk/1280/sj040853.jpg

The above are good examples of coach data panels

The first line is the coach design code
The first two letters are the TOPS code and determine the internal layout
The next is a number and determines the class of seating
The final letter determines the mark class

So in the example :
AJ1F
AJ is a Restaurant Buffet with Kitchen
1 is First Class seating
F is a Mk2F

AJ1G
As above, except the G is for Mk3/3A

if you are unsure what the mark class is, always look at the last letter on the first line

 

[JoshW1992]

Mark 1 coaches are more rectangular in shape, with less curves. Wheras a Mark 2 coach has a large curve at the bottom of the bodywork, and looks chubby compared to any other type of carriage.

 

[class 313]

Mark 1 coaches are more rectangular in shape,

You what? Mk1s are the most curved stock. If anything Mk2s/3s are more rectangular than Mk1s!

 

[JoshW1992]

You what? Mk1s are the most curved stock. If anything Mk2s/3s are more rectangular than Mk1s!

Really?? I thought MK2's were more rounded than MK1's... oh.... shows you how little I know

 

[TheSlash]

Really?? I thought MK2's were more rounded than MK1's... oh.... shows you how little I know

You were right, Josh, ignore Class 313, he's going through difficult times after the 'operation'

 

[class 313]

You were right, Josh, ignore Class 313, he's going through difficult times after the 'operation'

oh my, no operation was had .

No no, mk 1s have fully curved sides, yet m2s are more straight down.

 

[JoshW1992]

oh my, no operation was had .

No no, mk 1s have fully curved sides, yet m2s are more straight down.

Yeah, see your point, but I meant at the bottom, they curve quite heavily.

 

[rail-britain]

Mark 1 coaches have flat panel sides and ends, giving them a box look
Although the profile is not exactly flat and straight, and you can see this when you open a door as all the hinges are different lengths!

Mark 2 coaches have profiled valences and roof sections
This allows for more internal space

 

[class 313]

Yeah, see your point, but I meant at the bottom, they curve quite heavily.

Ah fair enough then yes that's true.

 

[P156KWJ]

Mk1, Mk2A/B/C all have similar bodies (although the windows are different), were built around the same time. All were originally vacuum braked only, but many are now dual (vac and air) - design speed 90mph
Mk2D/E/F all have air-con, air brakes only (including main resevoir and 'train pipe'), and have many enchanced features such as CDL and pneumatic interior doors. design speed 110/115mph
Mk3 similar to later mk2s, but with ridged rooves and with a higher design speed of 125mph
Mk4 much enhanced, with exterior plug doors and a design speed of 140mph.

If you want to know more on mk2Fs I know quite a bit. To tell the difference (if you don't know) of air and vacuum stock, it's easy:

you can see two black pipes at the end of the carriage. One is the steam heat (as they don't have ETS or ETH) which is the one on the right, the one on the left is vacuum brake pipe.
As for air brakes:

On the left you can see a red and yellow valve connected to a pipe. The red one is the main resevoir, which connects to the main resevoir supply on the locomotive and the auxillary resevoir on each vehicle. The brake pipe (yellow) is connected to the driver's automatic brake valve, or brake pipe pressure control unit.
On the right is another cable with an orange plug. This is not to do with braking, but it the electrical jumper for ETH and/or CDL

 

[87015]

Mk1, Mk2A/B/C all have similar bodies (although the windows are different), were built around the same time. All were originally vacuum braked only, but many are now dual (vac and air) - design speed 90mph
Mk2D/E/F all have air-con, air brakes only (including main resevoir and 'train pipe'), and have many enchanced features such as CDL and pneumatic interior doors. design speed 110/115mph
Mk3 similar to later mk2s, but with ridged rooves and with a higher design speed of 125mph
Mk4 much enhanced, with exterior plug doors and a design speed of 140mph.

110/115mph design speed Mk2 aircons, where and what is this?!

All Mk2s are 100mph design speed including the pv (Mk2abc) ones, and very few were built as vac only - in fact no Mk2 abc were, only the Mk2(z) prototype batch. I'm pretty sure Mk2 stock cannot be dual braked aswell, certainly rather lacking in existence if it can be done.

Plenty of Mk1s are also 100mph, depends on the bogie type AFAIK.

 

[Galvanize]

110/115mph design speed Mk2 aircons, where and what is this?!

All Mk2s are 100mph design speed including the pv (Mk2abc) ones, and very few were built as vac only - in fact no Mk2 abc were, only the Mk2(z) prototype batch. I'm pretty sure Mk2 stock cannot be dual braked aswell, certainly rather lacking in existence if it can be done.

Plenty of Mk1s are also 100mph, depends on the bogie type AFAIK.

I'm sure quite a few of the WCML Mark 2s have done more than 100mph one time or another with a driver who had a moment of forgetfulness (i.e. thought he had a rake of mark 3s instead )

 

[P156KWJ]

110/115mph design speed Mk2 aircons, where and what is this?!

All Mk2s are 100mph design speed including the pv (Mk2abc) ones, and very few were built as vac only - in fact no Mk2 abc were, only the Mk2(z) prototype batch. I'm pretty sure Mk2 stock cannot be dual braked aswell, certainly rather lacking in existence if it can be done.

Plenty of Mk1s are also 100mph, depends on the bogie type AFAIK.

my apologies! Thought when virgin ran mk2s with 87s it was 110mph?

also, mk2As DO have vacuum brakes. We have quite a few down at Ruddington and all are vac only. And if early mk2s do have air (for charters and such) they would have been converted. And certain coaches can be dual braked, such as mk1 laboratory coaches

 

[rail-britain]

The majority of Mk2 stock was 100mph, there were a small number restricted to 90mph, as above none were 110mph or higher

A small number of NEA vans were fitted with B5 bogies, along with shorter service intervals, and reclassified as NHA, allowing 110mph operation

The original Mk2 coaches were vacuum braked
The first batch of Mk2a coaches were vacuum braked, later batches were vaccum braked but fitted with equipment for future conversion to air braking and as a result some were converted from vacuum to air braking
From Mk2b coaches onwards these were air braked
The main difference was a small number of Mk2a coaches had disc brakes fitted for use on the Glasgow - Edinburgh services

 

[87015]

I'm sure quite a few of the WCML Mark 2s have done more than 100mph one time or another with a driver who had a moment of forgetfulness (i.e. thought he had a rake of mark 3s instead )

Yes certainly, unofficially of course. Keeping to 110mph times with your 100mph coaches a speciality for some!! :grin:

If Mk2 stock could be dual braked I'm sure pres lines / private operators would have plenty of it for ease of use - as there is a distinct lack i'm guessing it can't be done.