2 questions on Merseyrail

[modernrail]

2 quick questions:

1.
I have noticed the track coming into Central from the south seems to be jointed. How does an intensely used section like this manage to be quite ancient when plenty lesser used bits of the network have continuous weld?

2.
Could the Kirby service be extended to Wigan using supercapacitors. They are easily operating runs on buses of 20km in some locations now and charge in about 4 minutes. Could this be an interesting test ground for that solution in rail? Could you even reinstate electric services from Liverpool to Manchester via Wigan using this method to fill the gap, providing much improved connectivity for people along that currently fragmented corridor (that used to be a mainline).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the Kirby service be extended to Wigan using supercapacitors. They are easily operating runs on buses of 20km in some locations now and charge in about 4 minutes. Could this be an interesting test ground for that solution in rail? Could you even reinstate electric services from Liverpool to Manchester via Wigan using this method to fill the gap, providing much improved connectivity for people along that currently fragmented corridor (that used to be a mainline).

Skem is the elephant in the room here - it's quite possible that we will end up with a Liverpool-Skem (EMU) and Skem-Wigan-Manchester (DMU) split instead, which is a lot less arbitrary than the Kirkby bufferstops, and due to the location of everything is likely to involve a terminus at or near the Concourse.

But taking Skem out of it, rather than messing with the EMUs it wouldn't be unduly expensive to lay third rail on the short section to Wigan Wallgate bay and terminate there (2 out of the 4tph probably would make sense, all of them on Sundays), and I would be supportive of doing that. I wouldn't support going further - Merseyrail is a simple, reliable network due to *not* ending up stuck in whatever is going on at Victoria, Castlefield or wherever.

 

[Muzer]

Skem is the elephant in the room here - it's quite possible that we will end up with a Liverpool-Skem (EMU) and Skem-Wigan-Manchester (DMU) split instead, which is a lot less arbitrary than the Kirkby bufferstops, and due to the location of everything is likely to involve a terminus at or near the Concourse.

But taking Skem out of it, rather than messing with the EMUs it wouldn't be unduly expensive to lay third rail on the short section to Wigan Wallgate bay and terminate there (2 out of the 4tph probably would make sense, all of them on Sundays), and I would be supportive of doing that. I wouldn't support going further - Merseyrail is a simple, reliable network due to *not* ending up stuck in whatever is going on at Victoria, Castlefield or wherever.

You say it's short, it doesn't really look that short to me. I think it would make it longer than almost all the other Merseyrail branches. Third rail needs its substations, so I can imagine construction costs would be expensive - plus getting special approval for such a significant extension of the third rail network when (from what I gather) the regulators aren't particularly keen on new third rail due to trackworker safety concerns.

 

[Ianno87]

2 quick questions:

1.
I have noticed the track coming into Central from the south seems to be jointed. How does an intensely used section like this manage to be quite ancient when plenty lesser used bits of the network have continuous weld?

The tonnage is quite light relatively speaking; 4tph usually 4 or 6 car EMUs does not place a huge burden on the track and may not yet have required renewal with CWR.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

2 quick questions:


2.
Could the Kirby service be extended to Wigan using supercapacitors. They are easily operating runs on buses of 20km in some locations now and charge in about 4 minutes. Could this be an interesting test ground for that solution in rail? Could you even reinstate electric services from Liverpool to Manchester via Wigan using this method to fill the gap, providing much improved connectivity for people along that currently fragmented corridor (that used to be a mainline).

A far better expenditure for Merseyrail and Merseyside as a whole would be to extend to Liverpool Airport. The Kirkby - Wigan flow isn't that great and most Liverpool - Wigan traffic is via Lime Street - North Western.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A far better expenditure for Merseyrail and Merseyside as a whole would be to extend to Liverpool Airport. The Kirkby - Wigan flow isn't that great and most Liverpool - Wigan traffic is via Lime Street - North Western.

It's not so much for existing rail traffic as potential traffic that isn't presently on rail, e.g. West Lancashire to Wigan via Kirkdale which at the moment would drive.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It's not so much for existing rail traffic as potential traffic that isn't presently on rail, e.g. West Lancashire to Wigan via Kirkdale which at the moment would drive.

Apart from Skelmersdale I doubt many other journeys from West Lancs (Ormskirk to Wigan for instance) would swop a shortish drive or a direct bus service to catch a train Southwards and change at Kirkdale before heading east to Wigan

 

[frodshamfella]

A far better expenditure for Merseyrail and Merseyside as a whole would be to extend to Liverpool Airport. The Kirkby - Wigan flow isn't that great and most Liverpool - Wigan traffic is via Lime Street - North Western.

Yes I'd agree the airport could do with a rail link...and give Speke a station too while they're at it.

 

[TheSel]

Skem is the elephant in the room here - it's quite possible that we will end up with a Liverpool-Skem (EMU) and Skem-Wigan-Manchester (DMU) split instead, which is a lot less arbitrary than the Kirkby bufferstops, and due to the location of everything is likely to involve a terminus at or near the Concourse.

But taking Skem out of it, rather than messing with the EMUs it wouldn't be unduly expensive to lay third rail on the short section to Wigan Wallgate bay and terminate there (2 out of the 4tph probably would make sense, all of them on Sundays), and I would be supportive of doing that. I wouldn't support going further - Merseyrail is a simple, reliable network due to *not* ending up stuck in whatever is going on at Victoria, Castlefield or wherever.

However - with or without a railhead to Skelmersdale (which has been talked about for many years, but never happened, primarily because Skelmersdale is north of Watford, and has never returned to Parliament an MP who went on to become Minister for Transport!) - it wouldn't simply be a third rail which would be needed. Muzer (post #3) has already highlighted the requirement for electrical infrastructure and regulatory approval - but in addition, I strongly suspect the existing single track from Kirkby to Rainford would need to be [re]doubled, in order to accommodate paths for the 'Kirkby Binliner' trains - twice daily (Monday - Friday, once on Saturday) to/from Knowsley Freight Terminal, accessed by a short spur from Dale Lane. And that would ruin possibly the most scenic rail photo available on Merseyside, not to mention remove the last remaining semaphores! No - not in favour.

Photo: 66137 slows to a crawl in order to hand back the single line token at Rainford Junction on 26 July 2018.

 

[driver_m]

The new units are supposedly having some individual test bed sets with batteries precisely for this sort of run. Seems the best way of getting to Preston, helsby, Warrington etc in the current climate.

 

[ivanhoe]

If only the transport authorities of the early 1950's had made different decisions regarding the tram network. One of the early thoughts was to extend the tram to Speke. Would have covered the then Airport and would probably have covered the new airport with a short extension. Can't really see any links to JLA in respect of rail, would pass any financial scrutiny. Passengers to JLA are coming from all directions and being mainly a low cost operation, it really requires such solutions.

 

[Eccles1983]

Skem is the elephant in the room here - it's quite possible that we will end up with a Liverpool-Skem (EMU) and Skem-Wigan-Manchester (DMU) split instead, which is a lot less arbitrary than the Kirkby bufferstops, and due to the location of everything is likely to involve a terminus at or near the Concourse.

But taking Skem out of it, rather than messing with the EMUs it wouldn't be unduly expensive to lay third rail on the short section to Wigan Wallgate bay and terminate there (2 out of the 4tph probably would make sense, all of them on Sundays), and I would be supportive of doing that. I wouldn't support going further - Merseyrail is a simple, reliable network due to *not* ending up stuck in whatever is going on at Victoria, Castlefield or wherever.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

It was be very expensive to sort it, considering the layout of the land and the flood risk/damage the line takes.

 

[frodshamfella]

If only the transport authorities of the early 1950's had made different decisions regarding the tram network. One of the early thoughts was to extend the tram to Speke. Would have covered the then Airport and would probably have covered the new airport with a short extension. Can't really see any links to JLA in respect of rail, would pass any financial scrutiny. Passengers to JLA are coming from all directions and being mainly a low cost operation, it really requires such solutions.

Maybe some sort of tram...would that be cheaper ? By the time anything is decided and built, it will be urgent for sure.

 

[michael74]

Maybe some sort of tram...would that be cheaper ? By the time anything is decided and built, it will be urgent for sure.

Yea, because Merseytram went so well....

 

[urbophile]

One of the original suggestions for the Merseytram network was for trams to take over the slow lines from the city centre to Liverpool South Parkway, and continue to the airport. The roads between the two points consist mainly of wide dual carriageways: if trams (or tram-trains) aren't feasible, how difficult would it be to build an elevated rail line like the DLR? Which would also (no-brainer) serve Speke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the original suggestions for the Merseytram network was for trams to take over the slow lines from the city centre to Liverpool South Parkway, and continue to the airport. The roads between the two points consist mainly of wide dual carriageways: if trams (or tram-trains) aren't feasible, how difficult would it be to build an elevated rail line like the DLR? Which would also (no-brainer) serve Speke.

Trams only weren't feasible because of money. A DLR like Overhead Railway (well, it'd have to be called that, wouldn't it?) would cost more.

 

[frodshamfella]

That whole area the A562 ( I think it is) the junction with the road to the airport, and nearby Mersey Retail Park, plus the industrial park opposite has become very congested, some improvements for public transport is needed. The Merseyrail stopping at Hunts Cross is an odd place to terminate when you have an airport nearby and all the industry by Jaguar. Can we not have a little Mersey Crossrail extension ??!