2 minute silences

[Panda]

This thread is quite enlightening. I did not grow up in this country, so I find the two minute silence thing a bit strange. After this week's silence, which was observed in our office with an official announcement beforehand, I felt almost "dirty" for questioning this in my mind. And for sitting there all quietly, not knowing what I should be thinking about, remembering and wondering what other people were thinking about (most of the people who were in the same meeting are from other countries too).

I find it quite ritualistic and that many people just do it for the sake of doing it. Should it really be imposed on others, hasn't it lost the meaning when it's just become a bit of a "we just do it because we do it"? I'm happy to allow others to observe it if they wish, but I hate the fact that it makes me feel completely awkward.

I feel that my view on this is harsh and it makes me feel ashamed. I do not condone war and I do not know of any family members I lost in a war (if I lost a family member in WWI, I don't know about them and I never knew them). I have lost close family members, but would never enforce my views of reflection on their lives onto others - in fact, I wouldn't even talk about their death for fear of making them feel awkward.

I'm pretty sure that none of this should make a person feel ashamed or awkward, but that's all it does.

 

[Oswyntail]

... for questioning this in my mind. And for sitting there all quietly, not knowing what I should be thinking about, remembering and wondering what other people were thinking about (most of the people who were in the same meeting are from other countries too)....

Well done you! Two minutes of quiet contemplation, about yourself and other people, in the context of "Remembrance". To me, that is exactly what it should be about, thinking, feeling, questioning.

 

[FQ]

My guard yesterday (on the 10:55 from Moor Street to Marylebone) came over the PA at 10:59 and asked everyone to be quiet for 2 minutes to remember fallen. It even made a bunch of people who (thankfully) got off at Solihull from yelling to each other (in the quite zone) shut up.

 

[Antman]

My employer tried to make it mandatory for everyone to down tools on Sunday and yesterday to mark it.

A quick reference to how this would have been illegal under the Equality Act and they changed their minds on it.

I don't think that some people realise that when you make things like this mandatory then it loses all impact.

If you want to do it then do it and if you don't then don't. Those who choose not to partake should not be castigated for having a different opinion.

And of course the best way of Remembrance would be not getting into any more wars, that never gets remembered though.

But if your employer is telling you to stop work for two minutes what have you got to complain about if you're still getting paid? It seems a lot of the objections are just sheer bloody mindedness and causing arguments for the sake of it and bringing equality laws into it is just ridiculous

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My guard yesterday (on the 10:55 from Moor Street to Marylebone) came over the PA at 10:59 and asked everyone to be quiet for 2 minutes to remember fallen. It even made a bunch of people who (thankfully) got off at Solihull from yelling to each other (in the quite zone) shut up.

When I was on the buses I'd stop at a bus stop for two minutes with the doors open in case anybody wanted to get off, never had one complaint in fact quite the opposite. Even a gang of chavs managed to respect it.

 

[Wolfie]

Well surely common sense dictates that somebody administering first aid wouldn't be expected to partake in a two minutes silence? Is there more to this?

I would agree... but common sense sometimes seems in short supply..

But if your employer is telling you to stop work for two minutes what have you got to complain about if you're still getting paid? It seems a lot of the objections are just sheer bloody mindedness and causing arguments for the sake of it and bringing equality laws into it is just ridiculous

my bold

Telll that to, for example, James McClean, who is a professional footballer playing in the Premier League. He has refused to wear a poppy shirt at all clubs he has played for. He made a public statement this year:

"If the poppy was simply about World War One and Two victims alone, I'd wear it without a problem.

"I would wear it every day of the year if that was the thing but it doesn't, it stands for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in. Because of the history where I come from in Derry, I cannot wear something that represents that."

I fundamentally disagree with his views but completely respect his right to have them. Try and impose something on him against his wishes and deepest beliefs and watch the writs fly....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-reveals-wont-wear-6740133

 

[Antman]

I would agree... but common sense sometimes seems in short supply..



my bold

Telll that to, for example, James McClean, who is a professional footballer playing in the Premier League. He has refused to wear a poppy shirt at all clubs he has played for. He made a public statement this year:

"If the poppy was simply about World War One and Two victims alone, I'd wear it without a problem.

"I would wear it every day of the year if that was the thing but it doesn't, it stands for all the conflicts that Britain has been involved in. Because of the history where I come from in Derry, I cannot wear something that represents that."

I fundamentally disagree with his views but completely respect his right to have them. Try and impose something on him against his wishes and deepest beliefs and watch the writs fly....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-reveals-wont-wear-6740133

Yes I am aware of that and the abuse he has had from Sunderland fans but nobody is being asked to wear a poppy, just stop work for two minutes. Now what reasonable objection can anybody have to that?

 

[Chew Chew]

Yes I am aware of that and the abuse he has had from Sunderland fans but nobody is being asked to wear a poppy, just stop work for two minutes. Now what reasonable objection can anybody have to that?

People that have similar convictions to James McClean where they have seen British forces carry out atrocities and collusion can also find having to remain silent for 2 minutes to honour them objectionable.

 

[Antman]

People that have similar convictions to James McClean where they have seen British forces carry out atrocities and collusion can also find having to remain silent for 2 minutes to honour them objectionable.

Well then just take the opportunity to nip to the loo or whatever, mountains and molehills!

 

[Chew Chew]

Well then just take the opportunity to nip to the loo or whatever, mountains and molehills!

Or they could just continue to work as that is what they are getting paid to do.

 

[D1009]

In the Netherlands all traintravel is shut down from 20.00 to 20.02 on May 4 every year in remembrance of the 2nd World War. In the first we were neutral. The next day we celebrate the indepence of our country, but is not a free day. We all need to work!

This is a bit off topic, but were you aware that King Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands joined our Queen at the Remembrance Sunday service in Whitehall to lay a wreath marking the 70th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands by British troops.

 

[Antman]

Or they could just continue to work as that is what they are getting paid to do.

They're being paid to do what the boss tells them to do:roll:

 

[Wolfie]

They're being paid to do what the boss tells them to do:roll:

So if your boss during work time tells you to put your head down a toilet and action the flush....

Sorry but what a crass inaccurate statement.

 

[Antman]

So if your boss during work time tells you to put your head down a toilet and action the flush....

Sorry but what a crass inaccurate statement.

I don't think it's me that has made a crass statement here is it?:roll:

Putting ones head down the loo is hardly comparable to being told to stop work for two minutes is it?

 

[fowler9]

It wouldn't be the most pointless thing I've had a boss ask me to do. Ha ha.

 

[TUC]

My employer tried to make it mandatory for everyone to down tools on Sunday and yesterday to mark it.

A quick reference to how this would have been illegal under the Equality Act and they changed their minds on it.

I don't think that some people realise that when you make things like this mandatory then it loses all impact.
.

I agree it should not be mandatory but I fail to see how the Equality Act is relevant.

 

[Wolfie]

I agree it should not be mandatory but I fail to see how the Equality Act is relevant.

Potentially discriminatory on grounds of nationality and/or religion!

I don't think it's me that has made a crass statement here is it?:roll:

Putting ones head down the loo is hardly comparable to being told to stop work for two minutes is it?

You didn't refer to stopping work in the post in question though. You made an absolute statement that when at work you are being paid to do whatever your boss tells you to do - there were no qualifiers over legality or anything else!

 

[Antman]

Potentially discriminatory on grounds of nationality and/or religion!



You didn't refer to stopping work in the post in question though. You made an absolute statement that when at work you are being paid to do whatever your boss tells you to do - there were no qualifiers over legality or anything else!

This is just ridiculous now:roll::roll:

 

[Wolfie]

This is just ridiculous now:roll::roll:

Precision in language is what I do for a living!

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day if you are in a safety critical role at a safety critical moment you should not expect to be able to drop everything unless you had pre arranged to do so, and even then there may be occasions you cannot do so. I think it only right that even if you don't want to pay your respects that you allow others to do so though if it isn't some kind of critical situation. I include the armed forces personnel who insisted on continuing their conversations about trees being trimmed or faulty doorbells with my colleagues (Many of whom are ex forces or are related to or friends with people in the forces) who wanted to pay their respects. There seems to be no barrier to being selfish.

 

[Wolfie]

At the end of the day if you are in a safety critical role at a safety critical moment you should not expect to be able to drop everything unless you had pre arranged to do so, and even then there may be occasions you cannot do so. I think it only right that even if you don't want to pay your respects that you allow others to do so though if it isn't some kind of critical situation. I include the armed forces personnel who insisted on continuing their conversations about trees being trimmed or faulty doorbells with my colleagues (Many of whom are ex forces or are related to or friends with people in the forces) who wanted to pay their respects. There seems to be no barrier to being selfish.

I fully, as a fellow MOD employee, agree!

 

[Oswyntail]

Potentially discriminatory on grounds of nationality and/or religion!..

Tell me a religion that does not support Remembrance Day.
As for nationality, what is discriminatory about Remembrance Day? The message is not about glorifying conflict, it is paying tribute to the sacrifices on all sides. Not stoking the embers of those conflicts, but, even for those directly affected, forgiveness and striving for peace. It is the very opposite of discriminatory.

 

[AM9]

I agree it should not be mandatory but I fail to see how the Equality Act is relevant.

Because we are normally employed to do a specific job of work. Unless you work for a faith organisation, the armed forces, certain government organisations etc., where observance of silence etc. could be sensibly regarded as part of the job for which you were employed, you could not be accused of disobedience by continuing work. If it was clearly pointed out to you that it was mandatory to stand at your desk every day and sing the company song before you took the job then you would have to accept the duty, but some orchestrated show of affection/subservience/thought observance does not under any reasonable argument form a part of the job specification, (except for cartain types of job as explained above).

 

[Wolfie]

Because we are normally employed to do a specific job of work. Unless you work for a faith organisation, the armed forces, certain government organisations etc., where observance of silence etc. could be sensibly regarded as part of the job for which you were employed. If it was clearly pointed out to you that it was mandatory to stand at your desk every day and sing the company song before you took the job then you would have to accept the duty, but some orchestrated show of affection/subservience/thought observance does not under any reasonable argument form a part of the job specification, (except for cartain types of job as explained above).

It was completely voluntary in MOD Main Building, as was attending the ceremony at the Cenotaph! I happily, through my own choice, both wore a poppy and took part in the silence.

 

[Antman]

Because we are normally employed to do a specific job of work. Unless you work for a faith organisation, the armed forces, certain government organisations etc., where observance of silence etc. could be sensibly regarded as part of the job for which you were employed, you could not be accused of disobedience by continuing work. If it was clearly pointed out to you that it was mandatory to stand at your desk every day and sing the company song before you took the job then you would have to accept the duty, but some orchestrated show of affection/subservience/thought observance does not under any reasonable argument form a part of the job specification, (except for cartain types of job as explained above).

At the risk of repeating myself, all anybody is asking is for staff to stop work for a couple of minutes

 

[theironroad]

At the risk of repeating myself, all anybody is asking is for staff to stop work for a couple of minutes

No, it is not. The poster earlier in the thread says they have been formally warned for not observing the two minute silence. This is imposing an act of remembrance on an individual who may not wish to observe it ( it doesn't matter if he was doing first aid or not.)

While the British legion, who describe themselves as the guardians of remembrance may wish people to observe the silence, I imagine they would be appalled that soemone was forced to under an employment disciplinary process.

The media and lawyers would have a field day if this person went public with their story.

This is not about someone being told to stop working, it is about being forced, under fear of disciplinary processes, to take part in an act of remembrance that a person may not want to, by exploiting a persons lack of knowledge of how employment laws and the disciplinary process can be used.

 

[Antman]

No, it is not. The poster earlier in the thread says they have been formally warned for not observing the two minute silence. This is imposing an act of remembrance on an individual who may not wish to observe it ( it doesn't matter if he was doing first aid or not.)

While the British legion, who describe themselves as the guardians of remembrance may wish people to observe the silence, I imagine they would be appalled that soemone was forced to under an employment disciplinary process.

The media and lawyers would have a field day if this person went public with their story.

This is not about someone being told to stop working, it is about being forced, under fear of disciplinary processes, to take part in an act of remembrance that a person may not want to, by exploiting a persons lack of knowledge of how employment laws and the disciplinary process can be used.

Absolute nonsense, if they object that strongly go to the toilet for two minutes!

 

[theironroad]

Absolute nonsense, if they object that strongly go to the toilet for two minutes!

Think what you like, there is no need for someone to scuttle off to the toilet. A employment tribunal would make mincemeat of an employer doing this.

 

[Antman]

Think what you like, there is no need for someone to scuttle off to the toilet. A employment tribunal would make mincemeat of an employer doing this.

So how far would you take this nonsense?

Would you object to bring 'forced' to take time off work at christmas and Easter?

Would you object to bring 'forced' to observe a minutes silence at a football match or other event?

I can't believe what a nation of whingers we're becoming:cry:

 

[berneyarms]

So how far would you take this nonsense?

Would you object to bring 'forced' to take time off work at christmas and Easter?

Would you object to bring 'forced' to observe a minutes silence at a football match or other event?

I can't believe what a nation of whingers we're becoming:cry:

I don't think that someone should be issued a formal warning that is retained on their HR record by an employer for not observing it, as another poster has stated above.

Are you suggesting that is a correct course of action?

 

[theironroad]

So how far would you take this nonsense?

Would you object to bring 'forced' to take time off work at christmas and Easter?

Would you object to bring 'forced' to observe a minutes silence at a football match or other event?

I can't believe what a nation of whingers we're becoming:cry:

Cry if you want. as ww1 and ww2 vets often point out, they were fighting for freedom from totalitarian state control. Being put into a formal disciplinary process for not observing a silence is not freedom of conscience.