2 lives and Enhanced standard

[Hinata Shoyo]

Hi all,

I recently attended a psychometric assessment day for a TOC that requires the enhanced standard. I completed all stage 1 and stage 2 tests to their enhanced standard, apart from the MMI where 1 question let me down, which I was told prevented me from getting an enhanced standard in the MMI. Gutted but we move. I just have a few questions about this:

1) does this affect the number of lives I have left? I'm aware we all have 2 lives for these assessments but as I didn't fail to meet the national standard, am I right in assuming I still have 2 lives?

I know I can't apply to this same TOC for another 6 months. However,

2) as I reached the national standard in the psychometrics, would I be able to apply to any TOC/FOC that wants the national standard or do I need to wait 6 months?

3) would I be able to apply to any other TOC/FOC that wants the enhanced standard before 6 months is up? And is it just a case of the other TOC/FOC checking my scores against their own enhanced standard and progressing me to the next stage if my scores are high enough?

Thanks

 

[Class2ldn]

Well you haven't passed to enhanced standard, the mmi forms part of your two lives so I believe you've lost 1 attempt to get to an enhanced level, you do however have 2 lives for the standard pass as you didn't fail any, you just didn't reach the enhanced level for all parts.
Some tocs who require enhanced may accept your scores and you may be able to skip them but you'll have to do an mmi again and reach enhanced level to fully complete all the tests at that standard.
Thats my understanding of it anyway.

 

[baz962]

To add to the above. If you were told you have a national pass in the mmi , then you can apply straight away to tocs that accept national standards. Apparently the tocs that have enhanced levels , possibly have different levels of enhancement. This kind of makes it all a minefield and if you passed everything else to enhanced , you possibly could apply to other tocs with enhanced. My reasoning behind this is that I passed to enhanced back in 2017 , but was told by the opc at their office in Watford , that the computer tests and the mmi did not have enhanced levels. I'm wondering now if they meant for that particular toc.
If you passed to national , then you have lost no lives , but have lost an enhanced life . So you can apply straight away to tocs that use national. As for enhanced , it would seem to depend on what level of the tests they require.

 

[T-Karmel]

MMI does not have an enhanced standard, hence if you failed, you lost one life and cannot retake any of the tests for the next 6 months.

As MMI forms the National Standard, you can't be invited to the testing centre by any operator before the 6 months pass, but you can apply earlier considering recruitment process with some TOCs takes forever.

You can however and I would strongly encourage you to do so, ask for feedback via email or phone call to the OPC and find out the details and in case if we're mistaken here about MMI not having enhanced standard, I would stand corrected and you'd be free to apply anywhere else where if they accept National Standard, you'd be able to progress without undertaking any tests.

 

[Katwag1]

I’m also pretty sure MMI is pass or fail as I failed 1 question 6 months ago. Pleased to say I recently passed it. I know how it feels to be one question away so research the hell out of what they are looking for on the one you failed and go in there and smash it next time. Good luck.

 

[ALPAL]

From my experience of an in-house MMI and discussing outcomes with the examiner afterwards here is what they said, of course this could be wrong or I'm reciting wrong but may be something to go on with your further research:

1) they seemed to hint that the TOC had an enhanced standard for the MMI, as the MMI is scored numerically and this TOC required you to score X out of potential Y marks. They said if I failed to achieve X score that I may be eligible still to apply for other TOCs with a lower standard, especially as I had enhanced passes on the other tests. This meant potentially that I could still apply to TOCs with enhanced standards as their enhanced may be lower than this TOCs enhanced if you get what I mean.

2) I believe you can apply any time, although it appears some TOCs are linked through parent companies (Abellio, First etc). On my first attempt I couldn't apply to a second TOC straight away as they were technically the same company, don't know if this is specific to that group or not.

3) some TOCs appear to let you skip psychometrics that you've already passed but I'm lead to believe that although common, it's not always the case. If it is the case the OPC/people running it on the day will inform you what tests you need to sit or not, if you've met their standard you may get to skip a lot or all of the tests.

Interestingly the assessor told me that my chosen TOC's standard was one of the highest, but wasn't that much higher than the national standard. It appears there may not be much in it between standard and enhanced, so it may just be an effective way of trimming down candidates.

 

[Owen2323]

I am down one life and have been told I'm through to get invited for tests with a TOC that requires enhanced standard. After losing one life I'd previously said I'd then only apply for TOC's requiring National standard. My reasoning was that it was my last attempt so my chances of passing would be higher to the lower standard.

I then formed the opinion that if you passed to National standard but didn't make enhanced you wouldn't lose a life you just wouldn't progress any further with that particular TOC. Is my logic correct as I really don't want to compromise anything on my second and final attempt?

 

[ALPAL]

I then formed the opinion that if you passed to National standard but didn't make enhanced you wouldn't lose a life you just wouldn't progress any further with that particular TOC. Is my logic correct as I really don't want to compromise anything on my second and final attempt?

If you pass every single test and the MMI but don’t meet the TOC’s enhanced standard, you have not lost a life. Your results can then hopefully be used at other TOCs with lower standards.

 

[Owen2323]

If you pass every single test and the MMI but don’t meet the TOC’s enhanced standard, you have not lost a life. Your results can then hopefully be used at other TOCs with lower standards.

Thanks that's what I thought but are there not extra tests for enhanced such as the DFFT? If I were to fail that then would that be my second and final life used up?

 

[ALPAL]

Thanks that's what I thought but are there not extra tests for enhanced such as the DFFT? If I were to fail that then would that be my second and final life used up?

DFFT isn't in all the enhanced TOC/FOC's tests, it's an additional test that may or may not be used. If it is used then that TOC/FOC will be considered enhanced as it's above the national standard. A good tell on whether they do it or not is that when you get the practice material the DFFT booklet is a separate PDF, they won't send it if you're not doing it.

My recent enhanced pass for example was with a company that doesn't use DFFT, however I'd previously applied at an enhanced TOC which does use DFFT.

 

[Owen2323]

DFFT isn't in all the enhanced TOC/FOC's tests, it's an additional test that may or may not be used. If it is used then that TOC/FOC will be considered enhanced as it's above the national standard. A good tell on whether they do it or not is that when you get the practice material the DFFT booklet is a separate PDF, they won't send it if you're not doing it.

My recent enhanced pass for example was with a company that doesn't use DFFT, however I'd previously applied at an enhanced TOC which does use DFFT.

Excellent thanks for clarifying - there was no practice material for the DFFT which implies it's not in Northern's version of the tests (that's one less thing for me to worry about!)

 

[Hazza]

I’m also pretty sure MMI is pass or fail as I failed 1 question 6 months ago. Pleased to say I recently passed it. I know how it feels to be one question away so research the hell out of what they are looking for on the one you failed and go in there and smash it next time. Good luck.

Hey, huge congrats on recently passing your MMI!
I have mine approaching soon, but I’m nervous as have read of many people failing.
Please would you mind sharing which question you initially failed on?

 

[NorthernTech]

Hey, huge congrats on recently passing your MMI!
I have mine approaching soon, but I’m nervous as have read of many people failing.
Please would you mind sharing which question you initially failed on?

They will ask you six questions on paper, usually at the paper stage of the test. These are ‘Describe a time when….’ type questions, and you will need your own examples from your experiences as when/if you get to the MMI you will be asked about those examples given and possibly probed further. Someone else’s answer that they failed on isn’t going to help you with your answer.

 

[AverageJoe]

Hey, huge congrats on recently passing your MMI!
I have mine approaching soon, but I’m nervous as have read of many people failing.
Please would you mind sharing which question you initially failed on?

You have plenty of time to answer the 6 questions so take your time and think.
Then use the STAR technique in the interview.

 

[Carl98k]

I passed to national standard with a TOC, but I didn’t get an enhanced pass as I didn’t meet the standard for the DFFT. I had feed back from the OPC and they said the following. You only loose a life if you fail any standard tests, so as you’ve only failed DFFT you still have 2 lives.

 

[ALPAL]

Hey, huge congrats on recently passing your MMI!
I have mine approaching soon, but I’m nervous as have read of many people failing.
Please would you mind sharing which question you initially failed on?

Further to the other reply above you’ll also sit a computerised survey which will help them make your questions, it is 28 odd questions of a situation and a response to a situation, you answer whether or not you think it’s a useful response. This isn’t pass or fail, nor is the paper with the 6 questions. The computerised test will however form part of your MMI results, so if you nail the answers it may be easier to pass the overall MMI.

For your 6 questions pick examples you can go into extreme depth on, that are safety critical answers and can be related loosely to train driving. They want evidence that you are capable of concentrating for ages with little to no stimulation, able to follow complexed rules without hesitation and able to retain vast amounts of knowledge. Picking weak examples won’t help you!

 

[Hazza]

Thank you everyone who replied offering great advice. It is really much appreciated! ☺️

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Further to the other reply above you’ll also sit a computerised survey which will help them make your questions, it is 28 odd questions of a situation and a response to a situation, you answer whether or not you think it’s a useful response. This isn’t pass or fail, nor is the paper with the 6 questions. The computerised test will however form part of your MMI results, so if you nail the answers it may be easier to pass the overall MMI.

For your 6 questions pick examples you can go into extreme depth on, that are safety critical answers and can be related loosely to train driving. They want evidence that you are capable of concentrating for ages with little to no stimulation, able to follow complexed rules without hesitation and able to retain vast amounts of knowledge. Picking weak examples won’t help you!

Thanks again for this.

Please could you clarify whether they will ask you about all 6 questions you write down your answers to?

Or will they pick at random which ones to dive deeper into?

I have read different things on this forum! Some say they probe all 6, some just a couple.

Thanks in adv

 

[ALPAL]

They will ask all six unless your answer to one somehow covers another question.

For example if one question is a time you worked in an emergency situation and another is a time you had to work in difficult circumstances and you nail both topics with your answer to the first one asked, they may skip the second one.

They can also ask questions off the list of 6 which will be generated potentially from your weaknesses on the computer questionnaire beforehand, so expect some “if you were in xyz situation, what would you do” questions.

You’ll also be “probed” on all questions asked, so they’ll look for further detail or deviate slightly to get more from you. I think if you miss stuff they’ll try and get it out of you, but your answer still may be wrong. As in, if you don’t at any point mention what you’d do when fatigued at work they may just bluntly ask you what would you do, so they essentially help you towards potentially giving a better answer or if you’re a pessimist, give you more opportunity to trip up!

 

[Hazza]

They will ask all six unless your answer to one somehow covers another question.

For example if one question is a time you worked in an emergency situation and another is a time you had to work in difficult circumstances and you nail both topics with your answer to the first one asked, they may skip the second one.

They can also ask questions off the list of 6 which will be generated potentially from your weaknesses on the computer questionnaire beforehand, so expect some “if you were in xyz situation, what would you do” questions.

You’ll also be “probed” on all questions asked, so they’ll look for further detail or deviate slightly to get more from you. I think if you miss stuff they’ll try and get it out of you, but your answer still may be wrong. As in, if you don’t at any point mention what you’d do when fatigued at work they may just bluntly ask you what would you do, so they essentially help you towards potentially giving a better answer or if you’re a pessimist, give you more opportunity to trip up!

That’s great, thank you so much for such an in depth reply!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

They kept asking me "and how did that make you feel", they do probe hard for a decent amount of time so make sure you pick situations you can very clearly remember

 

[klkl]

They kept asking me "and how did that make you feel", they do probe hard for a decent amount of time so make sure you pick situations you can very clearly remember

I had a lot of “How did it make you feel” questions at my MMI. I thought it was an odd question at the time.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I had a lot of “How did it make you feel” questions at my MMI. I thought it was an odd question at the time.

It's designed to see how you cope under pressure I believe. Felt like a bit of a barrage but just have to keep calm and get through it