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1st Gen DMU refurbs

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delt1c

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Always wondered how BR decided which 1st gen DMU classes to refurb. Can understand the 101,s and 108,s but always wondered why the 118’s were not refurb as they were very similar to 1178's which were refurbished and had a long life. Cant be that it was a small fleet as the 114’s were refurb and that was a small fleet. How did BR decide what classes would be refurbished and what was slated for withdrawal! Like wise 105’s ( not my favorites) but they were numerous and reliable spread over 3 regions but never refurbished or even refreshed and had long lives
 
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randyrippley

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Non-standard engines
Non-standard transmissions
Non-standard MU jumpers
Rust
Asbestos
Number built

in no particular order
 
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delt1c

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Non-standard engines
Non-standard transmissions
Non-standard MU jumpers
Rust
Asbestos

in no particular order
In that case 118's only thing could be corrosion But based on that why did 105's last so long unrefurbished. Many refurbished units had asbestos removed on refurb
 

randyrippley

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my theory:

118 = 15 sets
117 = 42 sets
Natural attrition would have killed off the 118s first - lack of spares due to initial small numbers
But also BR would have picked the bigger fleet to keep

105/106 = 141 sets - an even larger combined fleet of near identical machines, only real difference being AEC vs Leyland diesels

The 114s you have to look at as being just a subset of the whole Derby built fleet, using shared components for which there was a good internal spares supply
 
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hexagon789

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In that case 118's only thing could be corrosion But based on that why did 105's last so long unrefurbished. Many refurbished units had asbestos removed on refurb
118 vehicles were refurbished, dyrung 1978 the three 118 centre cars that were running in Class 117 sets (59478-80 in L433-5) were refurbed along with the 117 power cars, these were the only 118 vehicles to receive the white and blue "refurbished livery". Also, three full 118 sets were refurbished - B473 (December 1983), P464 (January 1984) and P471 (April 1984), plus the 4 118 power cars that ran with 117 trailers for a period. As the 117s were refurbished and these trailers running with 128 power cars were also refurbished it was decided to do the power cars they ran with.

It was intended that the 118s would be done as the refurbishment brichure for the 117s also refers to the 118s but for some rreasonthe bulk of the class was simply painted in blue/grey and not physically refurbished.

The 105s were definitely due to Asbestos, as only the celebrity survivor 53812 had it removed and presumably it was far too costly to do the whole fleet.
 

StephenHunter

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In that case 118's only thing could be corrosion But based on that why did 105's last so long unrefurbished. Many refurbished units had asbestos removed on refurb
How widely was asbestos used on those units and what sort of stuff was it used for?
 

StephenHunter

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Asbestos was the 'wonder material' of its time and used extensively for its insulation properties in almost all stock around the time the DMUs were built.
Indeed, I know about that. I did a course on it at my job and have to deal with the subject too. I even have a joke about it - "you just have to do as-best-os you can".
 

seagull

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I seem to recall at least one class 119 vehicle still running around Reading up to the end of the 1st gen DMUs, I believe it was one driving vehicle of what was otherwise a class 117 three car set? So some of that class must have been refurbed too.
 

JonathanH

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I seem to recall at least one class 119 vehicle still running around Reading up to the end of the 1st gen DMUs, I believe it was one driving vehicle of what was otherwise a class 117 three car set? So some of that class must have been refurbed too.
They never got the refurbished blue stripe livery though.

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-119/liveries
Refurbished - white / blue stripe
The class did not carry this livery.

The 119s hung around but towards the end of the NSE days were displaced from North Downs workings by 117s off the Thames routes.

As I understand it, the 119s were the main class used on the North Downs from 1979 with the 101s replacing the worst examples and sharing workings later in the 1980s. I seem to recall that no 119s got Blue Blaze upholstery in NSE days unlike the 101s and 117s.

About 117s, the railcar website describes refurbishment taking place from 1977.

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-117/liveries
Refurbished
Refurbished Class 117
Refurbishment saw the white / blue stripe refurbished livery appearing from 1977, as featured on 51397 / 59507 / 51355 at Windsor Central on the 15th June 1980 (Robert Frise).

Blue / Grey
Blue Grey Class 117
From about 1980 they started appearing in blue/grey livery, and the sample photo shows set T302 (cars 51360 / 59512 / 51402) entering Birmingham Moore St on 23/10/87 (Mac Winfield). London sets in the Network South East era could be seen carrying NSE stickers while in BG livery, these would be under the center cab window or on the side of the center car.

I guess one question is whether 119s would have been surplus to requirements had the North Downs transfer not happened.
 
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StephenHunter

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White/blue stripe is something I'd not actually heard of before... guess you learn something new every day.
 

theblackwatch

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Interesting re the 118s. I'm guessing its refurbishment, and presumably removal of the blue stuff at the same time, ensured the survival of 51321 from set 464 into preservation - the only member of class not to be scrapped.
 
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Cowley

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Interesting re the 118s. I'm guessing its refurbishment, and presumably removal of the blue stuff at the same time, ensured the survival of 51321 from set 464 into preservation - the only member of class not to be scrapped.

I must admit that I hadn’t realised that none of the 118s had survived (apart from that coach). Was 464 one of the Laira ones then?
 

hexagon789

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I must admit that I hadn’t realised that none of the 118s had survived (apart from that coach). Was 464 one of the Laira ones then?
51321 was Bristol Bath Rd until '76
Then to Laira until Mid-'86
Then to Bristol Bath Rd until Mar-'88
Then to Tyseley until withdrawn.
 

Cowley

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51321 was Bristol Bath Rd until '76
Then to Laira until Mid-'86
Then to Bristol Bath Rd until Mar-'88
Then to Tyseley until withdrawn.

Ok thanks Hexagon, as P464 I must have travelled in it many a time back in those days. Topsham was solid 118 territory until the 142 Skippers turned up and once the 142s were sent away in disgrace we ended up with a mixed bag of 101s, 108s and the occasional Bubble Car (which was the nearest thing to a 118 by then).
I probably didn’t take too much notice of a refurbished one as I was too busy trying to look out of the front window!
 

Peter Mugridge

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White/blue stripe is something I'd not actually heard of before... guess you learn something new every day.
Not a brilliant photo, but this is what it looked like; this is on 6th May 1979 at Goring and Streatley.
 

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Cowley

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Not a brilliant photo, but this is what it looked like; this is on 6th May 1979 at Goring and Streatley.

I must admit that I always did like that livery, but it certainly didn’t weather too well!
 

theblackwatch

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I must admit that I always did like that livery, but it certainly didn’t weather too well!
And probably why there are (sadly) no preserved units in that livery, although a 114 set carried it for a while.

It's rather odd that the 117s didn't receive marker lights when they were refurbished. That obviously came at a different time, presumably in the early 80s.
 

norbitonflyer

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The 114s were a fairly big fleet - fifty units - and their larger Albion 230hp engines made them potentially more useful than others. Indeed, when their passenger-carrying days were over, some of them saw further use as parcels units.

Some units, the 100s for example, were of unusual construction which may have made refurbishment more of a challenge.
 

Cowley

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What class of unit is that? It looks very odd without head/tail-lights in the usual place?

I believe that it’s a 117 but yes it does look quite strange with no marker lights doesn’t it?
 

Taunton

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There was a prototype refurbished unit which came out in, I think, Summer 1974, and toured the country. I encountered it by chance at Edinburgh Waverley, positioned for inspection in one of the little-used east end bay platforms, there was just one board by the main booking office which invited attention to it, and a couple of junior engineers from the project to show you round. I think I was the only one there at the time. First sight of the "white" colour scheme. A 3-car Met Cam unit, two cars were done to an "efficient" style, and one to a "comprehensive" style, which was actually nicely done and looked a lot like the Mk 3 stock interior. Of course, the cheaper approach was the one that got the nod.

Regarding the 117/118 units, the WR liked the Derby Suburban style, but Derby works were sold out on the steel cars side with 4-car units for the LMR, so Swindon took the drawings and issued them to Pressed Steel in Paisley to build the London sets (the 117s), and shortly afterwards another 15 sets were ordered the same way from Birmingham RCW for the Plymouth area (the 118s). In usual WR style these stayed pretty much in their original areas, and indeed in original formations, for much of their time. Of course the builders did their own interpretations of the drawings, and there were a lot of differences under the skin and in interior furnishing style, although they looked the same. I believe BRCW used more asbestos than Pressed Steel did, which accounts for their lack of a later life. For some reason the 117s were ordered short of three intermediate trailers, and so three of the 118 equivalents were sent to London; the three resulting 2-car sets were also a West of England feature, including in the mid-1960s being used on Taunton to Barnstaple, which was run with Plymouth-based units (Taunton to Minehead, departing from the next bay alongside, was always run with Bristol-based units).
 

Cowley

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There was a prototype refurbished unit which came out in, I think, Summer 1974, and toured the country. I encountered it by chance at Edinburgh Waverley, positioned for inspection in one of the little-used east end bay platforms, there was just one board by the main booking office which invited attention to it, and a couple of junior engineers from the project to show you round. I think I was the only one there at the time. First sight of the "white" colour scheme. A 3-car Met Cam unit, two cars were done to an "efficient" style, and one to a "comprehensive" style, which was actually nicely done and looked a lot like the Mk 3 stock interior. Of course, the cheaper approach was the one that got the nod.

Regarding the 117/118 units, the WR liked the Derby Suburban style, but Derby works were sold out on the steel cars side with 4-car units for the LMR, so Swindon took the drawings and issued them to Pressed Steel in Paisley to build the London sets (the 117s), and shortly afterwards another 15 sets were ordered the same way from Birmingham RCW for the Plymouth area (the 118s). In usual WR style these stayed pretty much in their original areas, and indeed in original formations, for much of their time. Of course the builders did their own interpretations of the drawings, and there were a lot of differences under the skin and in interior furnishing style, although they looked the same. I believe BRCW used more asbestos than Pressed Steel did, which accounts for their lack of a later life. For some reason the 117s were ordered short of three intermediate trailers, and so three of the 118 equivalents were sent to London; the three resulting 2-car sets were also a West of England feature, including in the mid-1960s being used on Taunton to Barnstaple, which was run with Plymouth-based units (Taunton to Minehead, departing from the next bay alongside, was always run with Bristol-based units).

Very interesting @Taunton.
When the 118s in the west country were replaced by the 142s in the 1980s did they basically all go off for scrap and if so did Vic Berry’s deal with them?
They were breaking up so much stock around then but I don’t recall ever seeing any photos of the 118s being scrapped thinking about it now.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I believe that it’s a 117 but yes it does look quite strange with no marker lights doesn’t it?
Yes, that's a 117 - at the time they dominated the Western Region local services between Paddington / Reading / Newbury / Didcot / Oxford and the branches.
 
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