Would something similar to a Neighbourhood Watch work in 1st class? Ie people with 1st class tickets sitting in 1st class keeping an eye out for people without tickets and perhaps having a hotline to the guard on the train? This would probably be more useful on Southern, SWT or FGW local services then intercity services.
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1st Class Watch?
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cjp
Member
Nice idea spoilt by there being no guard on the FGW local services and last time I was on a SWT local train the guard had no revenue duties just a open and close doors dispatch etc.
It does make me angry though to see people sitting in first class at Paddington who I suspect do not have a (first class) ticket and no checks being made - could not the dispatcher pop their head in between trains?
This shows what a horrid idea this is: it would be based purely on people stereotyping others. There may be the odd occasion when a large group loudly says 'sod it, let's sit in here'. However if implemented it would generally end up reflecting the (often unconscious) class and racial presumptions of much of the population!*
*Note I'm not accusing you of this at all cjp, as I've no idea how you've come to presume that people don't have first class tickets, but many people making these judgements will base them on stereotypes.
Could be difficult. After all, how do you spot a first class passenger. I've gone through some and even thought, bet he doesnt, but he did. Even had another passenger go, 'did he have one' to me about another passenger. He did.
Note to all: not all passengers in first class with a suit and reading the telegraph have first class tickets, some passengers may be wearing jeans, or even might not be white*, and yet have first class tickets.
SJ
*sad, yes I know, but have come across this attitude from other passengers in first class.
Note to all: not all passengers in first class with a suit and reading the telegraph have first class tickets, some passengers may be wearing jeans, or even might not be white*, and yet have first class tickets.
SJ
*sad, yes I know, but have come across this attitude from other passengers in first class.
cjp
Member
I hesitated before posting this because I could not decide whether or not to give my reasons for feeling as I do that they do no have tickets - and I may be wrong but I suspect not.
Scenario
I am standing in the vestibule outside first class.
Person gets on, hesitates, and then goes into first class.
Now when I travel 1st, and I may look casual, I do not get, hesitate, look around, and then go in.
I also suspect that there are few first class tickets sold for a one stop seven minute journey especially when not all trains have first class.
Scenario
Also having followed a "first class traveller" out at the station exit they have touched out with Oyster to open the barrier. Oyster has no first class product - mind you these are good ones and at least have a ticket. At my usual local station unless there is block there is no check on entering or exiting.
And of course there is no reason why these first class types might not have plastic bags of stuff - we all have to shop, might not munch their hamburgers - we all get hungry and have to eat but an Oyster card???
causton
Established Member
Could always have a 1st advance and just be using their Travelcard season to touch out as it's easier than hassling the member of staff to let them through when it inevitably doesn't work in the barriers!
How would one know which passengers do not have a ticket ?
RJ
Established Member
I say live and let live. It should not be down to the passenger to police First Class accommodation. If a TOC consistently fails to take effective measures to prevent casual fare evasion in FC, save your money and travel in Standard.
The situation is what it is. I'm quite happy to vote with my feet and will probably always live a short commute away from work to the point where not having a seat isn't much of an issue.
I personally don't like the way I have been treated when using First Class accommodation on some services. On one East Coast train passing through the buffet, I was stopped and asked four times by two hosts if I was aware I was in First Class accommodation and made to show my ticket by one of the trolley pushers before I was allowed to take a seat. It's the guard's job to check tickets, who duly came through later in the journey. It's things like this that put me off ever paying for a FC ALR again. After spending £680 on a ticket, I didn't expect to have to face an inquisition like that and didn't see other people being treated the same way - unless other members can confirm that this is in fact, the norm? In which case, I'm even less inclined to bother with it again.
Disapproving looks from other passengers with ignorant preconceptions is not something I'd particularly welcome either. It's not a nice feeling when you've done nothing wrong and somebody in a position of authority appears out of nowhere, making a beeline for you rather than anybody else present and starts asking questions. So no, I don't agree with the notion of having a hotline to report people for suspected fare evasion.
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Most certainly so. I remember when I was on that ALR and groups of people occupied the compartment saying things like "let's just sit in here nobody is going to come and check our tickets." I just thought it was a waste of money, because those passengers were most likely correct. Similarly, sitting in First on an EMT service only for a group of railway staff in LU uniform occupying the FC compartment and having a loud, raucous conversation at 6am.
Paying the premium, then being annoyed by this sort of thing on a regular basis is not something I'd wish to do long term.
The situation is what it is. I'm quite happy to vote with my feet and will probably always live a short commute away from work to the point where not having a seat isn't much of an issue.
I personally don't like the way I have been treated when using First Class accommodation on some services. On one East Coast train passing through the buffet, I was stopped and asked four times by two hosts if I was aware I was in First Class accommodation and made to show my ticket by one of the trolley pushers before I was allowed to take a seat. It's the guard's job to check tickets, who duly came through later in the journey. It's things like this that put me off ever paying for a FC ALR again. After spending £680 on a ticket, I didn't expect to have to face an inquisition like that and didn't see other people being treated the same way - unless other members can confirm that this is in fact, the norm? In which case, I'm even less inclined to bother with it again.
Disapproving looks from other passengers with ignorant preconceptions is not something I'd particularly welcome either. It's not a nice feeling when you've done nothing wrong and somebody in a position of authority appears out of nowhere, making a beeline for you rather than anybody else present and starts asking questions. So no, I don't agree with the notion of having a hotline to report people for suspected fare evasion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Most certainly so. I remember when I was on that ALR and groups of people occupied the compartment saying things like "let's just sit in here nobody is going to come and check our tickets." I just thought it was a waste of money, because those passengers were most likely correct. Similarly, sitting in First on an EMT service only for a group of railway staff in LU uniform occupying the FC compartment and having a loud, raucous conversation at 6am.
Paying the premium, then being annoyed by this sort of thing on a regular basis is not something I'd wish to do long term.
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Thats a good idea. ATM I just text the BTP number with details. happens a few times a week.
The Barlow Boy
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They're not first class passengers, they're first class ticket holders. The holder of a first class ticket may not necessarily be a first class person.
revenueadvice
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I quite enjoy doing first class checks as you can sometimes get a confrontation between the people with the 1st class gold card and the person with a std class gold card occupying the seat.
I had a guy with std ticket saying " I pay £3500 a year bla bla bla." Was refusing to pay a penalty or give details and the guy sitting opposite showed how much he pays from the same destination and said "so shut up and pay the inspector what his asking for."
Out came the 'Coutts' debit card to pay the penalty fare. So he could blatantly afford a 1st class gold card. Just shows fare evaders come from all walks of life.
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The above is meant to say 3500 a year. Not sure what's gone on with them numbers!
I had a guy with std ticket saying " I pay £3500 a year bla bla bla." Was refusing to pay a penalty or give details and the guy sitting opposite showed how much he pays from the same destination and said "so shut up and pay the inspector what his asking for."
Out came the 'Coutts' debit card to pay the penalty fare. So he could blatantly afford a 1st class gold card. Just shows fare evaders come from all walks of life.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The above is meant to say 3500 a year. Not sure what's gone on with them numbers!
Definitely, you see when working a train I am always ready to drop everything to run to first class to deal with some good old fashioned baseless stereotypes and assumptions. Its not as if guards have more important safety based duties to deal with...
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