1st Class on the chingford line - always declassified?

[class303]

Hi. There's regularly 317s with 1st class areas working this line, but there doesn't seem to be any 1st class tickets available to purchase.

Can i sit in 1st class with a normal oyster season? just double checking on here rather than risk PROSECUTION

 

[Be3G]

Whether or not you can sit in first class isn't based on tickets (because there could be 1st class through tickets from destinations further afield), but the timetable: if the timetable doesn't say a train has first class, yet when it arrives it does, that first class is effectively declassified. Having had a quick look at the Chingford line timetable there's not one train to Chingford showing with a ‘1’ symbol, so you're in luck!

(Actually, I'm quite please you raised this as I'm hopefully moving to Chingford soon so can bear this in mind for myself…)

 

[jon0844]

I'd recommend that if you take advantage of a declassified first class area, carry a pocket timetable with you (RPIs will carry timetables too, but you can hardly force them to check if they want to mess you around).

Another tip is to get the TOC to confirm in writing and carry a copy of that letter, which I have no reason to doubt that they'd do. Or perhaps ask them via Twitter and keep a print out of that response?

I say this from experience on FCC, but if there are NO services marked first class on a specific line then perhaps you'll not have any trouble. But, you don't want to be given a PF that you later have to appeal, even if you will win.

 

[iphone76]

http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/daily-tickets/first-class-travel

The relevant section for Chingford is under off-peak first class offers.

 

[Be3G]

Whilst my point doesn't affect journeys to Chingford, the paragraph to which you're referring has to be taken with an unfortunate level of caution. For example, when it says ‘First Class accommodation is not provided on the London suburban lines to […] Cheshunt’, it's only partially correct as whilst the accommodation isn't provided on trains terminating at Cheshunt, there're other trains running along the lines which do offer first class. Furthermore, the bit about no first class on trains to Hertford East is in complete contradiction to the timetable!

 

[transportphoto]

Greater Anglia are not a fan at all of this way of working, if First Class accommodation is available, be it timetabled or not, you must have a First Class ticket to use that accommodation. I've contacted customer services on the matter numerous times and I believe there is also a thread on here about it, somewhere!

TP

 

[yorkie]

Furthermore, the bit about no first class on trains to Hertford East is in complete contradiction to the timetable!

I'd love it if they lost a prosecution case against someone, who presented that as evidence.

First Class accommodation is not provided on.... the Norwich to Sheringham, Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth lines.

Doesn't stop some of the guards trying to charge First Class upgrades.

 

[transportphoto]

Doesn't stop some of the guards trying to charge First Class upgrades.

It doesn't, no. I have given up trying!

TP

 

[zoothorn]

Hertford East station displays a large poster defintively stating that there all seating on trains from that station is available to standard class passengers, even though the majority of trains are now worked by 317s or even 379s sometimes! I have had a ticket check with a standard ticket sitting in first class and there was no problem whatsoever.

 

[Be3G]

Hmm… yet, oh! What's this?

(Am not doubting you zoothorn – more making the point that GA don't seem to know what's going on with first class on their trains.)

 

[jon0844]

Hmm… yet, oh! What's this?

(Am not doubting you zoothorn – more making the point that GA don't seem to know what's going on with first class on their trains.)

Could that be seeing what stock is running and get the first class bit from that (as in it has first class seating) - rather than actually showing what would be in a timetable?

I say that because if I looked up a semi-fast peak train from KGX, the timetable would NOT show 1st (it would likely be a 4 or 8 car 317 or 321 but possibly a 6-car 313 on occasion) - yet the above service might say 1st if it knows a 317 or 321 is operating the diagram.

EDIT: Perhaps not. Seems that the services I was referring to are shown as follows:

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/L01564/2013-04-22
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/L01558/2013-04-22
http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/L01570/2013-04-22

All with 'Standard Class seats only' even though some or all of them WILL have first class accommodation on them.

 

[455driver]

If the train isnt shown as having 1st class in the timetable then it doesnt have 1st class, if a train with 1st class accommodation works a standard class service (as shown in the timetable) then the 1st class is automatically declassified whether GA want it to be or not!

Da rools is da rools.

edit-

We used to have it when the 450s (pre 450/5) worked the Sheppertons (via Richmond) and I used to announce that 1st was declassified (as stated in the timetable).

 

[transportphoto]

If the train isnt shown as having 1st class in the timetable then it doesnt have 1st class, if a train with 1st class accommodation works a standard class service (as shown in the timetable) then the 1st class is automatically declassified whether GA want it to be or not!

Da rools is da rools.

'Da rools' need to be quoted please I certainly have never heard anything official that applies across the board that has have ever been sourced!

Cheers. TP

 

[455driver]

We were told this on my guards course a number of years ago, I aint got a clue where da rools state it.

So if the TOCs can have 1st class on a train if one happens to turn up why have it listed on the timetables when uit would be more fun if it was left off?

 

[Be3G]

Could that be seeing what stock is running and get the first class bit from that (as in it has first class seating) - rather than actually showing what would be in a timetable?

GA's actual public timetables show nearly every Hertford East service as containing first class – I just linked to Open Train Times as it was a slightly more direct way of making the point.

We used to have it when the 450s (pre 450/5) worked the Sheppertons (via Richmond) and I used to announce that 1st was declassified (as stated in the timetable).

Similarly, I remember being impressed that the pre-high-capacity 450s running on the Windsor services actually had scrolling messages on the in-train displays saying first class was declassified or words to that effect. Handy for doing a bit of work with a power socket and a big table!

 

[yorkie]

I concur with 455driver, and it appears to be a rule that dates back to BR days but no longer appears to be enshrined in the current Conditions of Carriage and I don't think it appears definitively in The Manual.

Now, I would argue that it doesn't need to be, as you can argue all accommodation is Standard Class accommodation, however it's not nice arguing with Guards and some of them will basically say you either move, pay, or they call BTP. So you either have to get into a lengthy dispute or you have to give in to them. Nearly everyone will give in, of course. Not nice when other passengers witness it and may think the Guard is in the right!

 

[455driver]

I concur with 455driver

Flippin heck I am glad I was sat down when I read that or I would have fallen over!


Only joking boss!