1st ALR Railcard Discounts

[Iskra]

Hello all, a quick query:

On this page, it shows you can get a 16-25 railcard discount on a normal All Line Rover ticket, yet you can't on a 1st All Line Rover despite other railcard discounts being accepted. Is this an error or deliberate, and why is this?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr20780b0a0400020167ed620a7e504e.aspx

 

[alex17595]

On a a 16-25 railcard you only get discount on 1st Advances.

 

[Haywain]

It is deliberate. 16-25 railcard discounts are not available for 1st class products other than Advance tickets.

 

[cf111]

It is deliberate. 16-25 railcard discounts are not available for 1st class products other than Advance tickets.

And Caledonian Sleeper servies.

 

[Jonfun]

To be honest, I think the same should apply to every other railcard too - ie standard only except for advances. The whole idea of railcards is to help make travel more affordable for groups who otherwise might go by other means, if you can afford a discounted walk up first fare then you can clearly afford a full price standard walk up fare.

Why should a person who's 23 but disabled (and bearing in mind the criteria for being classed as disabled isn't exceptionally high) be able to get discounted first class tickets when their mate who's the same age but isn't disabled can't?

 

[TheEdge]

To be honest, I think the same should apply to every other railcard too - ie standard only except for advances. The whole idea of railcards is to help make travel more affordable for groups who otherwise might go by other means, if you can afford a discounted walk up first fare then you can clearly afford a full price standard walk up fare.

Agree. I hate having to go to someone with a YP card and not sell them a discounted ticket then the next person I go to can buy the same ticket, discounted, with their Senior card.

Both have paid the same and both offer the same discount, so why the disparity?

 

[AM9]

Agree. I hate having to go to someone with a YP card and not sell them a discounted ticket then the next person I go to can buy the same ticket, discounted, with their Senior card.

Both have paid the same and both offer the same discount, so why the disparity?

Maybe the (possibly erroneous) perception of young people, their appearance and their behaviour is that they are not the kind of passenger that they want to encourage in first.

 

[island]

Maybe the (possibly erroneous) perception of young people, their appearance and their behaviour is that they are not the kind of passenger that they want to encourage in first.

That, and that they were unlikely to be in sufficient funds to have a need of such a discount, would probably have figured highly in the decision to exclude 1st class walk-up tickets from the discount. Worth remembering that the exclusion has been in place ever since the 16-25 Railcard was first issued.

 

[bnm]

That, and that they were unlikely to be in sufficient funds to have a need of such a discount, would probably have figured highly in the decision to exclude 1st class walk-up tickets from the discount. Worth remembering that the exclusion has been in place ever since the 16-25 Railcard was first issued.

And the allowance for Seniors and Disabled to have 1St Class discounts has been in place pretty much since their Railcards were introduced.

 

[yorkie]

I completely agree with Jonfun and TheEdge's posts above.

Hello all, a quick query:

On this page, it shows you can get a 16-25 railcard discount on a normal All Line Rover ticket, yet you can't on a 1st All Line Rover despite other railcard discounts being accepted. Is this an error or deliberate, and why is this?

I think it's deliberate.

They don't want young people to be encouraged into 1st class, but are more than happy for older people to be encouraged to use 1st!

 

[Starmill]

This policy is very silly. There are lots of times where the First multiplier is very sensible, e.g. some First Off-Peak or Off-Peak Day Returns on XC or EMT routes, or short singles, the Travelcards or tickets in Scotland. Unfortunately they aren't a sensible multiplier when you compare full fare First with discounted Standard. I would definitely spend slightly more in £ terms over a year if the discount were permitted officially rather than in the fashion you might get sold one currently.

 

[bnm]

I completely agree with Jonfun and TheEdge's posts above.

I think it's deliberate.

They don't want young people to be encouraged into 1st class, but are more than happy for older people to be encouraged to use 1st!

Who's they? Are we blaming the TOCs for supposedly treating young people unfairly?

That'd be the operators who are merely continuing pre-privatisation practice.

 

[Welshman]

I completely agree with Jonfun and TheEdge's posts above.

I think it's deliberate.

They don't want young people to be encouraged into 1st class, but are more than happy for older people to be encouraged to use 1st!

And what's wrong with that?,

"Older" people may be infirm, and appreciate a little more space and comfort; a cup of tea brought to their seat[ with any luck], rather than having to queue at the buffet; even a better chance of a seat at all, rather than having to stand in the vestibule for a 2-3 hour journey!

You will be an "older" person one day.

 

[yorkie]

And what's wrong with that?

It really depends on what the purpose of the Railcards are.

If Railcards are intended to encourage people to travel by rail, then arguably anyone deemed eligible for a Railcard should be entitled to the same discounts as anyone else who is entitled to a Railcard.

I think the intention goes beyond that, and the intention is to make 1st class a place which doesn't have many young people and is mostly occupied by older people.

Obviously they can't exclude young people but the intention does appear to be to discourage them.

"Older" people may be infirm, and appreciate a little more space and comfort; a cup of tea brought to their seat[ with any luck], rather than having to queue at the buffet; even a better chance of a seat at all, rather than having to stand in the vestibule for a 2-3 hour journey!

The same applies to anyone of any age, surely

People can also be entitled to a Disabled Railcard yet be not actually disabled in any meaningful sense, or be aged 60+ and be perfectly fit, and therefore get affordable 1st class fares, yet someone could be in great pain due to a bad injury and yet have no option but to be wedged into a vestibule.

It's all very arbitrary!

 

[Clip]

*Somethings in life are not fair shocker*

Blame it on the TOCs because there is no effective regulator......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the intention goes beyond that, and the intention is to make 1st class a place which doesn't have many young people and is mostly occupied by older people.
!

Back up your claim or retract it please.

Given that you can get dirt cheap 1st advances no matter your age on routes then you are talking complete rubbish and you know it.

 

[bnm]

It's all very arbitrary!

That's life!

I'm currently dealing with a family member's state benefits claims. What she can and can't get is very arbitrary.

 

[yorkie]

I blame fact there is no effective regulator on the DfT, so ultimately it all boils down to the DfT really.

I'm not sure who is to blame for the age discrimination unfairness still going on with Railcards... it may be the TOCs, but in reality some TOCs probably wouldn't mind changing things but it would need a majority of votes to get it changed and I doubt there is much appetite for change.

It was a BR rule, so I wouldn't really blame the current TOCs. If the DfT doesn't instigate a change, then I can't see it changing.

 

[bnm]

Back up your claim or retract it please.

Given that you can get dirt cheap 1st advances no matter your age on routes then you are talking complete rubbish and you know it.

Hear, hear.

I took a 1st Class trip yesterday and of the four people in the carriage 2 were clearly under 26.

 

[yorkie]

The fact that a Railcard exists which someone aged 16-25 can get without meeting any other criteria does not allow walk-up 1st class discounts, while another Railcard exists which someone aged 60+ can get without meeting any other criteria does allow walk-up 1st class discounts, is very clear evidence to me that the intention is indeed to encourage the latter group to upgrade and not the former group.

If they were just as happy for younger people to upgrade as older people then obviously the rules would be harmonised. That's obviously not the case!

You've presented your view and I've presented mine and we are just going to have to agree to disagree!

 

[Wolfie]

The fact that a Railcard exists which someone aged 16-25 can get without meeting any other criteria does not allow walk-up 1st class discounts, while another Railcard exists which someone aged 60+ can get without meeting any other criteria does allow walk-up 1st class discounts, is very clear evidence to me that the intention is indeed to encourage the latter group to upgrade and not the former group.

If they were just as happy for younger people to upgrade as older people then obviously the rules would be harmonised. That's obviously not the case!

I am inclined to agree with you. If we are correct ATOC are in a rather dangerous place currently. Age discrimination is only permitted when there are objective reasons for so doing, continuing historic practice wouldn't cut the mustard. I suspect that any threat of litigation on the issue (eg by the Equality Commission) would lead either to 16-25 cards being permitted 1st class discounts or that discount being withdrawn from other railcards (except perhaps the disabled one).

 

[greatkingrat]

I suspect historically the idea was Senior Railcard holders would be retired and mostly travelling off-peak, while 16-25 Railcard holders could be using it for business travel / commuting. Therefore they didn't want to give first class discounts on already busy trains. For a similar reason 16-25 has a minimum fare pre 1000.

Of course, with increased retirement ages, that reasoning is less relevant.

 

[TheEdge]

Yorkie, you misunderstand me, the 1st discount doesn't bother me, especially the idea of a walk up 1st fare is becoming increasingly rare, I see far many more YP discounted advances in 1st as I do walk up seniors.

What bothers me much much more is the 10am minimum fare. Take for example the 08.50 Lowestoft to Norwich, its an off peak train. A passenger with a senior card pays £5.50 whereas someone with a YP card pays £8.30 for a day return to Norwich. They are both eligible for for a railcard and have both paid the same for a railcard offering the same discount, its just wrong.

 

[Haywain]

If we're going to worry about age discrimination, isn't that lack of a national railcard for everyone else more important?

 

[jon0844]

Just as the £13 minimum for a network railcard also stops it being unusable for a lot of tickets in the week.

I am surprised we don't have discounted first class tickets off peak (even without a railcard), as first class on many trains is empty bar for those who don't actually have first class tickets or when it's declassified.

 

[Be3G]

Absolute f-ing rubbish. Back up your claim or retract it please.

Given that you can get dirt cheap 1st advances no matter your age on routes then you are talking out of your backside and you know it.

I've certainly been subjected to a small level of age-based discrimination when travelling in first class on a 16–25-discounted advance ticket, although it was resolved quickly and graciously by the guard on the train.

Having said that, I don't feel particularly aggrieved that my 16–25 railcards weren't valid for walk-up first class fares. My assumption about railcards has been that their validities have been based on a perceived need. An older person is more likely to value or need a seat, extra space and at-seat service than a younger person; same with a disabled person, and that's why railcard validities differ.

 

[maniacmartin]

Let's not forget that 16-25 railcard holders are not likely to have a car to compete with rail travel than most travellers

 

[OwlMan]

I am inclined to agree with you. If we are correct ATOC are in a rather dangerous place currently. Age discrimination is only permitted when there are objective reasons for so doing, continuing historic practice wouldn't cut the mustard. I suspect that any threat of litigation on the issue (eg by the Equality Commission) would lead either to 16-25 cards being permitted 1st class discounts or that discount being withdrawn from other railcards (except perhaps the disabled one).

Age based concessions are specifically exempt

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance#age-discriminationAge discrimination: exceptions

Exceptions under the Order are:

• age-based concessions
• age-related holidays
• age verification
• clubs and associations concessions
• financial services
• immigration
• residential park homes
• sport

 

[Merseysider]

To me, the lack of YP discount on 1st Anytime/Off Peak tickets doesn't present too much of a problem, as walk-up 1st tickets for journeys over ~30 miles are often so ridiculously priced that I wouldn't even consider them with a discount.

Example: Crewe->Lancaster is £63.
Manchester->Birmingham is £95.
London-Kettering is £78.50

If people of my age have that kind of money lying around then they're probably going to buy the first class product regardless of whether there's a discount or not. I don't think the number of 16-25 year olds buying 1st walk-up tickets would change much if there was a YP discount available.

 

[TEW]

Yorkie, you misunderstand me, the 1st discount doesn't bother me, especially the idea of a walk up 1st fare is becoming increasingly rare, I see far many more YP discounted advances in 1st as I do walk up seniors.

What bothers me much much more is the 10am minimum fare. Take for example the 08.50 Lowestoft to Norwich, its an off peak train. A passenger with a senior card pays £5.50 whereas someone with a YP card pays £8.30 for a day return to Norwich. They are both eligible for for a railcard and have both paid the same for a railcard offering the same discount, its just wrong.

It works the other way round too though in the South East. Travelling in the morning peak, far enough for the minimum fare not to be an issue, holders of a 16-25 Railcard get 1/3 off, but Senior Railcard holders don't. On some flows it means using a Railcard is more attractive than a season ticket.

 

[Starmill]

To me, the lack of YP discount on 1st Anytime/Off Peak tickets doesn't present too much of a problem, as walk-up 1st tickets for journeys over ~30 miles are often so ridiculously priced that I wouldn't even consider them with a discount.

Example: Crewe->Lancaster is £63.
Manchester->Birmingham is £95.
London-Kettering is £78.50

If people of my age have that kind of money lying around then they're probably going to buy the first class product regardless of whether there's a discount or not. I don't think the number of 16-25 year olds buying 1st walk-up tickets would change much if there was a YP discount available.

By contrast, a journey for which I have bought tickets quite a few times, Sheffield to Derby:

Off-Peak Day Return £11.30
First Off-Peak Day Return £16.90

With a railcard the CDR is £7.45 - which is what I buy. But if the railcard 'worked' for First Class I would buy the £11.15 ticket without question.

Another one I've done is Edinburgh to Dundee:

Off-Peak Return VTEC ONLY £27.30
Anytime Return VTEC ONLY £28.50
First Anytime Return VTEC ONLY £48.00

Add a 16-25 railcard and the Standard tickets become £16.10 and £18.80 respectively. Clearly that's going to win against £48. But, add a Senior Railcard and the First option is £31.70. At only an extra £7.50 or so each way I wouldn't hesitate.

Hereford to London is a 3h journey, if I were on direct trains, Off-Peak with GWR's fancy new First Class, if my railcard worked for First I would quite happily buy the First Off-Peak Return at £79.55 rather than the £35 cheaper Standard ticket should I have decided that's what I wanted. Under £40 each way is great value for that, and an extra £17.50 on a single journey is good value for a service with such a plush First for such a long way. Unfortunately it would be silly of me to buy that ticket for full price at £120.50 against the railcard discounted £44 in Standard.