1S69 Failure Abington 9th September 2024

[DelW]

Indeed, and if I had a pound for every incident in which full WCML bi-di signalling would have made a massive difference to the delays incurred I would be richer than Elon Musk.....

I don't know if you posted that just to wind up us arithmetical pedants but you'd be a very long way short ...

At a pound per incident, you'd need about 14 incidents per day, for every day since the line was built, to even reach your first million ... let alone however many billions Musk has now awarded himself!

 

[MatthewHutton]

Everyone was questioning at the time the wisdom of removing most of the Thunderbird coverage as being a false economy.

I think their point has been well and truly made now...?

I suspect the big change is that trains are a lot more reliable now.

The other side of the coin is that certainly in the car Lancaster-Glasgow is really pretty hilly and undoubtably puts more stress on the train and it is very remote. So you probably need a more old-fashioned approach there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

9S80 1440 London Euston to Edinburgh currently running 3 1/4 hrs late!​

(https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C22083/2024-09-09/detailed) At least it is moving now!
Seems a very inept response to a problem... not even a "sunday" service or staffing to have to cope with - although on the WCML Sundays are as busy/intensive as any other day.

Arriving 8 hours late is completely unforgivable. I mean really once you are more than 3 hours late the compensation needs to increase by 100% every hour of further delay.

 

[Efini92]

The three compressors are powered by 400V 3-phase supplies from three different Auxiliary Converters.
There is also an Auxiliary Compressor operated from the 110V battery supply to raise the local pantograph and close the VCB when initially powering up the train. However, at least one of the main compressors has to operate to charge the train air supply to release the brakes

Cheers, saves me looking it up.
The auxiliary compressor only raises the pantograph in H.

 

[Dr Hoo]

So it seems that at least one ‘side’ of the three auxiliary converters/compressor combos all failed during the course of one trip. Doesn’t inspire much confidence in the reliability of a Pendolino given that we also now know that they are for all intents and purposes ‘unassistable’, at least without wiping out an entire day’s services on two tracks.

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't know if you posted that just to wind up us arithmetical pedants but you'd be a very long way short ...

True, what I should have said was 'a pound for every minute of delay which bi-di signalling would have prevented', then I would be richer than 10 Elon Musks.....

(Actually said to show my frustration at the lack of any real improvement to the WCML north signalling since 1972)

 

[MatthewHutton]

True, what I should have said was 'a pound for every minute of delay which bi-di signalling would have prevented', then I would be richer than 10 Elon Musks.....

(Actually said to show my frustration at the lack of any real improvement to the WCML north signalling since 1972)

Splitting the line up into 15-20 minute sections so you can run an hourly skeleton service with only one track would be a good start.

And having a provisional emergency timetable so that there is a starting point to put that into action would also be a good start.

 

[MadMac]

True, what I should have said was 'a pound for every minute of delay which bi-di signalling would have prevented', then I would be richer than 10 Elon Musks.....

(Actually said to show my frustration at the lack of any real improvement to the WCML north signalling since 1972)

I was the designer when the full bi-directional signalling was put in on the Down ECML between Innerwick and Grantshouse in 1987, which has the same system as WCML. It was complicated, but doable. However, going by the retirements I’m aware of, there may well be nobody still active in the signalling design field (at least, on ScR) capable of doing the same today. You’d be looking at full resignalling.

One point of note is that as a “rule of thumb“, including some form of bi-directional on a brand new job doesn’t cost much more than the cost of the equipment - the design is relatively simple with a clean sheet of paper in front of you.

 

[Harpo]

Slightly cheaper option than resignalling the entire WCML with fully reversible signalling and enough extra crossovers for xTPH……..

Make sure the trains don’t fail.

Back in the real world - Resilience costs, hence why highly reliable trains, standbys, diversionary route knowledge, traincrews who can couple trains themselves, emergency crossovers etc., etc., don’t often get past the bean counters.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In daytime there’s an 80mph restriction because there’s not enough yellow showing on the front.
Night time there’s no restriction.

A few years ago there was a problem with the covers (?opening when running ?not closing can't remember the details) and they ran with them removed. I did take a photo of the very small yellow area left and wondered....

But they certainly weren't limited to 80 - it was most of the fleet.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Slightly cheaper option than resignalling the entire WCML with fully reversible signalling and enough extra crossovers for xTPH……..

Make sure the trains don’t fail.

Back in the real world - Resilience costs, hence why highly reliable trains, standbys, diversionary route knowledge, traincrews who can couple trains themselves, emergency crossovers etc., etc., don’t often get past the bean counters.

If you had to give each passenger £100/hour compensation for delays over 3-4 hours the bean counters would start to take notice. That gets expensive fast.

As it is theres a huge hidden cost. I cannot see people who got into Edinburgh at 4am when they were due at 8pm using the train again. While for small-medium delays the delay repay is generous. It isn't for that sort of delay.

 

[Harpo]

If you had to give each passenger £100/hour compensation for delays over 3-4 hours the bean counters would start to take notice. That gets expensive fast.

Makes more sense than the internal money-go-round of delay attribution!

 

[Peter0124]

Slightly cheaper option than resignalling the entire WCML with fully reversible signalling and enough extra crossovers for xTPH……..

Make sure the trains don’t fail.

Back in the real world - Resilience costs, hence why highly reliable trains, standbys, diversionary route knowledge, traincrews who can couple trains themselves, emergency crossovers etc., etc., don’t often get past the bean counters.

The only issue with that section of the WCML is there's no Avanti diversionary route anymore as the voyagers have gone therefore cannot use the route via Dumfries. 805s can be used but I don't think they'll be used north of Preston.

The Dumfries route would only be useful for Glasgow also.

 

[SansHache]

So it seems that at least one ‘side’ of the three auxiliary converters/compressor combos all failed during the course of one trip. Doesn’t inspire much confidence in the reliability of a Pendolino given that we also now know that they are for all intents and purposes ‘unassistable’, at least without wiping out an entire day’s services on two tracks.

Or the air was leaking out faster than it could be pumped in.

 

[Efini92]

A few years ago there was a problem with the covers (?opening when running ?not closing can't remember the details) and they ran with them removed. I did take a photo of the very small yellow area left and wondered....

But they certainly weren't limited to 80 - it was most of the fleet.

They used to run round quite happily at 125mph with the hatches open.
It was only when somebody decided there wasn’t enough yellow showing that the 80mph restriction was brought in.

 

[Horizon22]

A few years ago there was a problem with the covers (?opening when running ?not closing can't remember the details) and they ran with them removed. I did take a photo of the very small yellow area left and wondered....

But they certainly weren't limited to 80 - it was most of the fleet.

Most of the 80x fleet seems to run around on GWR with the couplers left open these days.

 

[Peter0124]

Also 397s have black fronts and they run at linespeed don't they?

 

[Efini92]

Also 397s have black fronts and they run at linespeed don't they?

That’s to do with headlights, the current standards say a certain brightness don’t require yellow ends.

 

[Falcon1200]

I was the designer when the full bi-directional signalling was put in on the Down ECML between Innerwick and Grantshouse in 1987, which has the same system as WCML.

We used that bi-di section once for one freight to overtake another, when they had left Millerhill in the wrong order!

It disappointed me that, during the West Coast Route Modernisation project, what seemed a pittance was spent on the northern sections; We still have a user-worked level crossing in Scotland, when crossings were being abolished altogether 'down south'.

The only issue with that section of the WCML is there's no Avanti diversionary route anymore as the voyagers have gone

Even before the Voyagers were replaced Avanti used very few in Scotland. The only time diversions using them, with a decent level of service, was possible was for longer-term blockages of the WCML, such as for Lamington Viaduct, and even then the service operated in two parts, north and south of Carlisle.