19th July Lockdown Easing - Observations and Compliance

[Green tractor]

Absolutely no comparison...

Why? people are choosing to wear masks, people choose to have tattoos, whats the difference?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2021 ==

OK then - as things currently strand the analogy would be after coming out of a 12 month period when you could be fined for not having one, the government still recommend everyone gets a tattoo, many shops still have signs up and trains often still have announcements that tattoos are required, and TFL require as a condition of travel that you have one.

Yes, if things were more passive in terms of masks and who is pushing them then yes, your analogy might hold some weight, but at present it does not.

I would get a supply of stick on one's just for the time being. It is not going to be permanent.

 

[roversfan2001]

Why? people are choosing to wear masks, people choose to have tattoos, whats the difference?

People with tattoos don't generally look down on those without them and judge them for it, nor do they accuse people without tattoos of being germ-ridden granny killers.

 

[kristiang85]

Tattoos don't affect your breathing or stop people from understanding what you're saying.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So with all this in mind, are people really wearing masks out of respect for others? Well maybe some, but I firmly suspect that more simply wear them because they think they have to, or that they do so to not to look out of place. Some might even wear them out of the fear of being guilty about someone else's death (even though that's near impossible to actually prove). But most people wear them (I suspect at least) because the government convinced them that they would die if they so much as stepped within 2 metres of another human being for more than a few seconds. We Brits aren't exactly well known as an altruistic nation at the best of times, heck many people seem to raise money for charity to raise their profile on social media than actually do some good. So I treat this notion that we all do it for some greater cause with, well a healthy dose of cynicism.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that, and I think a lot of people are still wearing them out of habit. It is just that previously I didn't really buy the "respect" argument - I saw it that rather than engendering a feeling of respect in other people, you're more likely to engender continued fear, by going around them with a mask on. But now that I've experienced being unwittingly contagious it gave me a new respect for mask-wearing and the behaviours (e.g. no coughing near other people) that it encourages, in environments where not everyone is there by choice and the infection rate is still relatively high. Not that I'm going to wear one now that I'm recovered, though!

 

[Green tractor]

Tattoos don't affect your breathing or stop people from understanding what you're saying.

Please provide some evidence that medical/cloth masks affect your breathing if you are fit and healthy.

 

[Failed Unit]

Please provide some evidence that medical/cloth masks affect your breathing if you are fit and healthy.

You could watch me have an asthma attack because I am wearing one, but I won’t bother as the result for me isn’t worth proving someone wrong.

 

[Bantamzen]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that, and I think a lot of people are still wearing them out of habit. It is just that previously I didn't really buy the "respect" argument - I saw it that rather than engendering a feeling of respect in other people, you're more likely to engender continued fear, by going around them with a mask on. But now that I've experienced being unwittingly contagious it gave me a new respect for mask-wearing and the behaviours (e.g. no coughing near other people) that it encourages, in environments where not everyone is there by choice and the infection rate is still relatively high. Not that I'm going to wear one now that I'm recovered, though!

Are masks really having those effects on behaviours though? As I mentioned earlier, the reason that the WHO originally advised against them was because people might see them as a safety barrier meaning that other mitigations could be left behind, including simple things like covering noses and mouths with hands when coughing & sneezing and even regular hand washing. And whilst for reasons as yet unclear they did a u-turn on that position, it seems at least from an anecdotal point of view they may have been right all along. Certainly over the last year there have been lots of observations on these forums how masks seem might have replaced some of the previous etiquettes that society observed. Plus from a data perspective, mask mandating does seem to have some correlation with upticks in positive cases. Its way too early to join all the dots and assume causation, but it certainly makes you sit up and wonder.

However all that aside, there is a far more important issue at stake here, that is mental health. Let's assume for one minute that masks act more as a reminder to people of the virus than they do actually stopping it. Is this really the best way to go about informing a reasonably well educated society? Should we be making people wear these to ensure compliance with other better mitigations such as regular hand washing, covering your face with your hand / issues when coughing or sneezing, or even staying home when you feel unwell? Is that loss of facial communication that many in our society rely on really worth it? I know a lot of people who would argue very strongly that it is not, and that people walking around faces semi-permanently covered is a cause of anxiety & even distress. A lot of people dismiss this as being silly, arguing that masks are a no-cost solution, but they ignore or do not understand how not being able to see & read people's faces can cause problems in a society largely used to doing just that. And all of which is before we consider the fear that governments around the world have seeded in telling people not wearing masks is inconsiderate through to practically an act of murder.

Quite honestly unless some real, verifiable evidence emerges that masks used in non-medical, public environments where the strict medical protocols cannot or are not applied to the use of masks demonstrates that beyond doubt masks actually have an impact on stopping the spread of viruses (not just covid), then we need to urgently review their use and look at more practical & less damaging measures to deal with this and future pandemics. And we will need to start having grown up conversations with all those people terrified into compliance by governments trying to find quick & dirty solutions. This will all start off with how viruses actually spread, and what is the risk to you compared to the rest of life, and what simple measures we have had for decades, even centuries to help.

 

[WestRiding]

No wonder people continue to wear masks, due to confusion. I caught the 12.26 Northern Service from Doncaster to Fitzwilliam (ultimately Leeds) yesterday. The self appointed little hitler (conductor) was telling passengers they MUST wear a mask on this service! How has the national network become so disjointed when there is clear guidelines from the RDG to the TOCs. Getting a little bit fed up of Railway Staff having their own individual rules away from National Guidance.

 

[nlogax]

Went out this morning before work. Picked up some tickets from Surbiton station - everyone in masks. Grabbed a coffee - everyone in masks except one of the baristi. Went to the local Co-op - everyone in masks.

I see no problem with people wearing them if they want to. It's no drama and each to their own. However I am slightly surprised that (18 month) old habits die this hard.

 

[DustyBin]

Please provide some evidence that medical/cloth masks affect your breathing if you are fit and healthy.

They certainly affected my breathing despite me being fit and healthy. I suspect this is why we see so many worn as “chin warmers” to be honest, i.e. people wanting to comply but finding it uncomfortable/difficult to breathe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2021 ==

Went out this morning before work. Picked up some tickets from Surbiton station - everyone in masks. Grabbed a coffee - everyone in masks except one of the baristi. Went to the local Co-op - everyone in masks.

I see no problem with people wearing them if they want to. It's no drama and each to their own. However I am slightly surprised that (18 month) old habits die this hard.

I’m rather fond of Surbiton station!

I’ll admit the number of people still wearing masks has surprised me, but on the other hand we have a population who have (in the main) been used to following orders for the last 18 months, so why would they stop now? We were told in no uncertain terms to continue wearing them and are reminded of this constantly in various settings. The removal of the mandate meant very little, it was really a technicality.

 

[nlogax]

I’m rather fond of Surbiton station!

My local station when I'm this end of the country. Still a beautiful building!

I’ll admit the number of people still wearing masks has surprised me, but on the other hand we have a population who have (in the main) been used to following orders for the last 18 months, so why would they stop now? We were told in no uncertain terms to continue wearing them and are reminded of this constantly in various settings. The removal of the mandate meant very little, it was really a technicality.

Indeed. I think at least for the station there are almost no reminders that restrictions have eased. The one-way system is still in place, the distancing stickers and spray markers still on the ground, staff are still masked up. All this heavily implies pre-July 19th restrictions are still in force.

The coffee shop and supermarket both tote signs saying masks are optional but it's had little effect on habits. Again though, customers' right to choose is the most important part of all this.

 

[DustyBin]

My local station when I'm this end of the country. Still a beautiful building!

Mine when I’m when in London is Crofton Park. It has a building.

Indeed. I think at least for the station there are almost no reminders that restrictions have eased. The one-way system is still in place, the distancing stickers and spray markers still on the ground, staff are still masked up. All this heavily implies pre-July 19th restrictions are still in force.

The coffee shop and supermarket both tote signs saying masks are optional but it's had little effect on habits. Again though, customers' right to choose is the most important part of all this.

I agree with the right to choose don’t get me wrong. I do however question whether people are truly exercising free will.

 

[Failed Unit]

I went to a local cafe this morning, When I got there 3 people in the queue (no masks) and all the staff had masks. By the time I had got to the front of the queue 4 more customers arrived and put their masks on once they were in the shop. So 2 very different view points in the same shop, during the same visit. Had I arrive 5 minutes later I would would be observing 100% mask wearing.

I have found generally, cafes / pubs / restaurants etc people are not bothering as they don't see the point for the 10m walk (I have did hear a wife say to her husband - put your mask on, his reply it makes no difference for 10m and he got the death stare)

Supermarkets seems mixed, morning shoppers seem to be more likely to than evening ones (no idea why)

Public transport, If people generally have masks on others follow, if they don't then others won't bother. We still get the angry twitter saying "it is terrible people are not wearing masks in my coach" - clearly they don't have enough to worry about.

But 2 weeks on, I am happy. No-one yet has challenged / death stared me, so I can go about my business without one, if others want to wear them so be it.

One thing that is interesting - I am seeing very few people bothering with the hand sanitizer, which is odd for the ones that have put their masks on considering that masks are a lovely breeding ground for multiple times of viruses (not just Covid)

 

[seagull]

I agree with the right to choose don’t get me wrong. I do however question whether people are truly exercising free will.

Many people are petrified of free will or having to make their own choice - unthinking conformity to the perceived "norm" suits many just fine.

Noted recently an interesting geographical variation which seems somewhat consistent: put roughly, the further north you go from London, the less the percentage of mask wearers. At least on the West Coast Main Line corridor, anyway.

 

[Green tractor]

You could watch me have an asthma attack because I am wearing one, but I won’t bother as the result for me isn’t worth proving someone wrong.

Which is why you are/were medically exempt.

 

[35B]

They certainly affected my breathing despite me being fit and healthy. I suspect this is why we see so many worn as “chin warmers” to be honest, i.e. people wanting to comply but finding it uncomfortable/difficult to breathe.

When they were first introduced, I found they affected my breathing pattern until I learned to ignore them. I found just the same effect on my breathing pattern the one time I used snorkelling equipment.

 

[DustyBin]

When they were first introduced, I found they affected my breathing pattern until I learned to ignore them. I found just the same effect on my breathing pattern the one time I used snorkelling equipment.

I used to find wearing a gum shield affected my breathing, but I learnt to breathe through my nose more effectively (this is quite a common issue in sports where gum shields are worn). The issue I had with masks is that they cover both your mouth and nose and I felt like I couldn’t get enough air into my lungs so had to lower/take it off to catch my breath.

 

[ExRes]

Many people are petrified of free will or having to make their own choice - unthinking conformity to the perceived "norm" suits many just fine.

And what exactly is 'free will'? We've seen with things such as Brexit, Gender and Trump over the last few years, anyone who expresses 'free will' in their thinking or comments which differ from the herd is invariably abused and insulted, Covid is no different in any way so many people show 'conformity' because they wish to live free of insult caused by the very 'free will' you mention

Personally I couldn't care less whether people wear masks or not, it has no 'mental' effect on me whatsoever, I'm simply surprised that such a large percentage are still wearing them when so many were supposedly screaming for their removal

 

[Cdd89]

The thing that confuses me is why masks are promoted to the exclusion of everything else. I was on a train yesterday, in a carriage that was mostly masked, but with a lot of talking. I’m not concerned about catching or spreading Covid at this point; but if I were, I’d much prefer to be in the unmasked silent carriage.

Above all it shows people are not acting rationally about risk; either because they overestimate how effective masks are, or because they underestimate how ”risky” vocalisation is. Or perhaps it just shows that most people want to fit in and, like me, don’t care about the risk.

 

[kristiang85]

I think masks also have an effect whereby they make people feel safe, without making much actual epidemiological difference - so people will do less social distancing, louder talking, etc. which probably completely negate masks.

I've found since I stopped wearing mine on the 19th, I'm a lot more conscious of standing back from people (as my concession to those who might be worried still), and a lot more aware of other ways I can alleviate risks without having to cover my face. I'm sure I'm not the only one doing this.

Given that I've yet to see any country where there has been a correlation between the implementation of a mask mandate alone and a fall in cases, the 'false security' aspect is probably quite true.

 

[seagull]

And what exactly is 'free will'? We've seen with things such as Brexit, Gender and Trump over the last few years, anyone who expresses 'free will' in their thinking or comments which differ from the herd is invariably abused and insulted, Covid is no different in any way so many people show 'conformity' because they wish to live free of insult caused by the very 'free will' you mention

Exactly my point: many do not want to stand out from the crowd for those reasons. Exercising true free will is often, these days, only for the brave.

 

[DustyBin]

Exactly my point: many do not want to stand out from the crowd for those reasons. Exercising true free will is often, these days, only for the brave.

I agree, people have lost the ability to respectfully disagree. In regard to anything covid related it doesn't help that the government and media have whipped up hysteria and used emotive language at every opportunity....

 

[35B]

I agree, people have lost the ability to respectfully disagree. In regard to anything covid related it doesn't help that the government and media have whipped up hysteria and used emotive language at every opportunity....

A failing that I have observed from all sides of the arguments around Covid, and where governments are far from uniquely guilty.

 

[Merseysider]

I agree, people have lost the ability to respectfully disagree. In regard to anything covid related it doesn't help that the government and media have whipped up hysteria and used emotive language at every opportunity....

Quite.

Those damned “Look into his eyes” ads trying to convince us leaving the house would kill Grandpa were replaced literally a month later with the ad of happy, smiling, cheerful friends meeting up in a park showing us it’s “now safe” to meet up outdoors. For many, I imagine the damage was already done.

 

[kristiang85]

A failing that I have observed from all sides of the arguments around Covid, and where governments are far from uniquely guilty.

Well this is social media; generally I find most of the shrieking is on there, and not in 'real life'.

 

[DustyBin]

Well this is social media; generally I find most of the shrieking is on there, and not in 'real life'.

It really does bring out the worst in some people, and provides a "safe space" for utter morons.

 

[kristiang85]

It really does bring out the worst in some people, and provides a "safe space" for utter morons.

If only people universally abided by my rule of "Don't say something - or act towards them - in a way on social media that you wouldn't in real life".

I've been firmly polite with my COVID contributions on Twitter, but the amount of abuse I've had sometimes in return is ridiculous. But then I feel I've won the argument if people can only retort with insults rather than picking apart the facts/opinion I've posted.

 

[MikeWM]

I’ll admit the number of people still wearing masks has surprised me, but on the other hand we have a population who have (in the main) been used to following orders for the last 18 months, so why would they stop now? We were told in no uncertain terms to continue wearing them and are reminded of this constantly in various settings. The removal of the mandate meant very little, it was really a technicality.

I'm afraid to say that it didn't surprise me much.

For me, the key issue is that it we have been very cleverly and cruelly manipulated into a state where it has become socially required for healthy people to act as they are ill, and 'protect' others from an illness (that they probably don't have in the first place). It may no longer be *legally* required but the social obligation remains, and we are continually reminded of that by government, media, announcements and ever-present signage. Those who do not are 'selfish' and considered to be outside the norms of society.

Masks are the most obvious physical manifestation of this catastrophic societal shift - so while I respect the rights of people to wear them if they choose, I am dismayed that they continue to do so, because it shows that those people are content to go along with this fundamental and deeply troubling change in the way our society works.

All the nexus of this new society - tests, distancing, masks, vaccinating those at negligable risk from the disease, and now vaccine passports - are dependent on this shift. Equally much of what we previously valued in society - personal contact, large events, spontaneity, freedom - is dependent on reversing it. And those who continue to wear masks are, in effect, doubling down on the shift, making it less and less likely over time that it will be reversed.

Make no mistake how big a shift this is - two years ago if people were constantly checking if they were ill and taking 'precautions' against giving a stranger an illness they had no sypmtoms of and probably don't have, we would have called them neurotic, or paranoid, or OCD, or even said they had Munchausens' disease. And that society, for all its many faults, was a lot better than the one we have now.

 

[bramling]

I'm afraid to say that it didn't surprise me much.

For me, the key issue is that it we have been very cleverly and cruelly manipulated into a state where it has become socially required for healthy people to act as they are ill, and 'protect' others from an illness (that they probably don't have in the first place). It may no longer be *legally* required but the social obligation remains, and we are continually reminded of that by government, media, announcements and ever-present signage. Those who do not are 'selfish' and considered to be outside the norms of society.

Masks are the most obvious physical manifestation of this catastrophic societal shift - so while I respect the rights of people to wear them if they choose, I am dismayed that they continue to do so, because it shows that those people are content to go along with this fundamental and deeply troubling change in the way our society works.

All the nexus of this new society - tests, distancing, masks, vaccinating those at negligable risk from the disease, and now vaccine passports - are dependent on this shift. Equally much of what we previously valued in society - personal contact, large events, spontaneity, freedom - is dependent on reversing it. And those who continue to wear masks are, in effect, doubling down on the shift, making it less and less likely over time that it will be reversed.

Make no mistake how big a shift this is - two years ago if people were constantly checking if they were ill and taking 'precautions' against giving a stranger an illness they had no sypmtoms of and probably don't have, we would have called them neurotic, or paranoid, or OCD, or even said they had Munchausens' disease. And that society, for all its many faults, was a lot better than the one we have now.

I can only agree with the above. Just heard a PA at Euston mainline - "wear a face covering out of respect for others". Despite this mask use still around the 50/50 level, including on LU. Just like Brexit, a perfect divide!

 

[DustyBin]

I'm afraid to say that it didn't surprise me much.

For me, the key issue is that it we have been very cleverly and cruelly manipulated into a state where it has become socially required for healthy people to act as they are ill, and 'protect' others from an illness (that they probably don't have in the first place). It may no longer be *legally* required but the social obligation remains, and we are continually reminded of that by government, media, announcements and ever-present signage. Those who do not are 'selfish' and considered to be outside the norms of society.

Masks are the most obvious physical manifestation of this catastrophic societal shift - so while I respect the rights of people to wear them if they choose, I am dismayed that they continue to do so, because it shows that those people are content to go along with this fundamental and deeply troubling change in the way our society works.

All the nexus of this new society - tests, distancing, masks, vaccinating those at negligable risk from the disease, and now vaccine passports - are dependent on this shift. Equally much of what we previously valued in society - personal contact, large events, spontaneity, freedom - is dependent on reversing it. And those who continue to wear masks are, in effect, doubling down on the shift, making it less and less likely over time that it will be reversed.

Make no mistake how big a shift this is - two years ago if people were constantly checking if they were ill and taking 'precautions' against giving a stranger an illness they had no sypmtoms of and probably don't have, we would have called them neurotic, or paranoid, or OCD, or even said they had Munchausens' disease. And that society, for all its many faults, was a lot better than the one we have now.

Very well put!