19c - what counts as a journey?

[Pumbaa]

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.

In this instance is a journey;

1) your total journey using a combination of tickets including a change of trains if necessary
2) the journey taken on one train whereby leaving the train to change to another ends your journey using a combination of tickets ?

In particular I want to know can I complete (for instance) a Navigation Road - Milton Keynes journey using a Navigation Road - Stockport 7DS and a Stockport - Coventry and Rugby - MK normal tickets, taking advantage of BoJ of the SOR on the outward portion of Stockport - Rugby?

I think it is permitted - my journey is Nav Road to MK.

I am unsure whether or not onboard staff will think that.

What are your thoughts please?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well I think the definition of 'a journey' is travelling from your origin to your final destination irrespective of any combination of tickets held (so your option 1). As for your combination I also think it's permitted but I'd be inclined to have a copy of Condition 19 with me.

 

[calc7]

SPT-COV is 2V restricted (after 0930)
SPT-RUG is a couple of pounds dearer but is 2T (after 0430) and allows BoJ.

It is against the spirit of the rules but so long as you actually commence your journey from Navigation Road then that is a perfectly acceptable set of tickets.

 

[wintonian]

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

Personally I think this explains it fairly well, that a journey can be made up of many different component legs with or without more than 1 associated ticket.

for example a 'break of journey' is often permitted and is defined as leaving station premises, as such a journey cannot end just because the passenger has alighted from a train. Indeed a journey can not end without leaving station premises, If you had a 7 day ALR used sleepers and never left the railway you could in theory have a journey that takes 7 days.

On the other hand if you live in Reading and go to work in London then get the train to Manchester (where you are staying for the weekend) and use a Reading to Manchester route; +London ticket is that still a single journey? If you were to pop out of Paddington to visit the bank and then went straight to Euston, that would obviously be a single journey - where does one draw the line or does one not need to?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The term 'journey' is not adequately defined nor consistently used in Railway Regulations and Statute.

However, it is clearly intended to apply to the point to point travel which includes all the tickets (and arguably all the connecting modes of travel) which amount to carrying a passenger by any number of linked 'legs', if they can be construed as forming a journey, arguably including a circular tour or extended excursion with many breaks.

The concept of 'Break of Journey' illustrates the disconnect between physical travel and a journey paid for by a single ticket. The 'minimum interchange connection times' illustrates the connect between tickets forming the one 'journey' even if the connection is not at the one, same station.

Your example (1) applies.

I doubt that anyone on here can anticipate with accuracy what "onboard staff will think".

 

[Pumbaa]

Thanks all.

Am I correct then in deducing that it is permissible when using multiple tickets for a journey under 19c for those tickets to not allow BoJ as you are not physically leaving the train and therefore your journey?

 

[yorkie]

Navigation Road - Stockport Season, then Stockport - Rugby then Rugby - MKC tickets?

One season, and the others are not, so the train doesn't need to call anywhere. If the train does call somewhere you can break your journey there, but if you resume it from Coventry, don't be surprised if the guard then considers your resumed journey to be "a journey" and therefore would probably expect the train to call at Rugby. You can argue your journey is from Navigation Road and it has merely be resumed, and I'd agree with you, but the guard may disagree, and you may want to see RJs posts about how such use of ticketing can result in an argument, and consider whether or not you want to get into an argument, if your ticket is inspected on that portion of a resumed journey.

 

[RJ]

I doubt that anyone on here can anticipate with accuracy what "onboard staff will think".

I'd hazard a guess at apathy for this particular journey.

That said, staff have been suspiciously receptive to my 19c combinations over the last three weeks. Had two stings for new tickets in the first week of October when my commute resumed then nothing since, despite having travelled several times - one journey being with one of the TMs who did charge me that week. Plenty of head scratching evident but they're all doing the right thing and stamping my tickets before moving on now, which is how it should always have been!

It's a real pity the people at IRCAS are hopeless at understanding Condition 19c. I appealed the UFN I was issued with earlier this month and had a rejection through from them this week despite providing them with the manual validity calculations down to the last detail which the conditions clearly referenced. Not the first time it has happened either.